GUY GIBSON-SHOT DOWN BY THE RAF
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The defence may be said to have won as the HVAA was never engaged. Three AAM were fired and two kills achieved. The only problem was the F16s never engaged nor were themselves engaged.
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Forget which of the many books I've read covers the essence of gunners' policy, which boiled down to:
"Count the number of engines, if it's less than four - OPEN FIRE"
"Count the number of engines, if it's less than four - OPEN FIRE"
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"Count the number of engines, if it's less than four - OPEN FIRE"
If it happened, then it's sad. But GG would be well acquainted with the behaviour of and SOPs for gunners over hostile territory.
I can't see why any thinking person would want to blame the gunners . . . now if it were Lewis Hamilton . . . (oops)
Anyone flying a twin engined aircraft, in the dark inside the bomber stream is asking for trouble.
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Recent findings have suggested that Guy Gibson, Amy Johnson, Glen Miller and Douglas Bader were all downed by friendly fire (or in Glen Miller's case friendly bombs)
The Daily Mail also had the Guy Gibson story
Dambusters legend Guy Gibson was shot down by BRITISH airman | Mail Online
Very sad if true.
The Daily Mail also had the Guy Gibson story
Dambusters legend Guy Gibson was shot down by BRITISH airman | Mail Online
Very sad if true.
A good deal of sympathy for the gunner - it sounds as if the debriefers laid it on a bit thick with the "lost and trying to follow a bomber home".
Flying a twin-engine aircraft anywhere within effective .303 range of a bomber over hostile territory would seem to be less than smart, given bomber loss rates and the fact that everyone knew that there were ten Mosquitoes in the sky versus ****-knows how many Ju88s.
A bit like sneaking up on a rookie cop in a bad neighbourhood at 3am and yelling BOO!
Flying a twin-engine aircraft anywhere within effective .303 range of a bomber over hostile territory would seem to be less than smart, given bomber loss rates and the fact that everyone knew that there were ten Mosquitoes in the sky versus ****-knows how many Ju88s.
A bit like sneaking up on a rookie cop in a bad neighbourhood at 3am and yelling BOO!
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You should read the full story in Britain at War, apparently when he was reported as lost a cheer is reputed to have gone up in the local pub as he was that hated amongst junior crews and groundcrew.. at one point even sabotage was suspected, but he swapped planes at the last moment so it was ruled out.
Indeed another article on some pilot that died doing a victory roll in a previous addition, it was stated that no one attended the funeral because they were so saddened by his loss, the next issue someone had come forward with evidence to suggest he was a bully to the Sgt pilots to the extent of ordering some of them to "participate in some of the japes where they were bullied" and one of the said Sgt pilots did a little dance amongst the burning wreckage of his plane before wandering off smiling to himself that he was gone.....
Indeed another article on some pilot that died doing a victory roll in a previous addition, it was stated that no one attended the funeral because they were so saddened by his loss, the next issue someone had come forward with evidence to suggest he was a bully to the Sgt pilots to the extent of ordering some of them to "participate in some of the japes where they were bullied" and one of the said Sgt pilots did a little dance amongst the burning wreckage of his plane before wandering off smiling to himself that he was gone.....
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Flying a twin-engine aircraft anywhere within effective .303 range of a bomber over hostile territory would seem to be less than smart, given bomber loss rates and the fact that everyone knew that there were ten Mosquitoes in the sky versus ****-knows how many Ju88s.
Not sure about Luftwaffe night-fighter figures for the night of 19/20 Sep, but 1 & 5 Groups Bomber Command sent 227 Lancasters supported by 10 Mosquitoes to bomb Monchengladbach/Rheydt. 100 group sent a further 15 RCM aircraft and 17 Mosquito sorties. 4 Lancasters were lost in addition to Gibson's Mosquito - Gibson was Master Bomber for the raid. The low losses suggest that the night-fighters did not penetrate the bomber stream in large numbers.
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The article also suggested the (Mossie) had all his nav lights on as well... suggesting he may have had radio problems and was trying to show he was friendly.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, a Lanc rear gunner told me Gibson went because 'he got too cocky'. He also told me that Gibson had said 'Its lovely down here chaps at four thousand feet'.
Now whether the X rear gunner was on that raid ( he died this year aged 90), whether it was hearsay, or whether Gibson was shot down by light flak I don't know. It would seem very unlikely that he would've been downed by a four engined heavy if he was at four thousand feet!
There have of course been references to a light in the cockpit, seen by people on the ground. This may have been a fire or possibly a torch, looking for the fuel valve, which previous stories have alluded to.
I guess we will never know.
Now whether the X rear gunner was on that raid ( he died this year aged 90), whether it was hearsay, or whether Gibson was shot down by light flak I don't know. It would seem very unlikely that he would've been downed by a four engined heavy if he was at four thousand feet!
There have of course been references to a light in the cockpit, seen by people on the ground. This may have been a fire or possibly a torch, looking for the fuel valve, which previous stories have alluded to.
I guess we will never know.
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If Martin Middlebrook is to be believed (and he is an impecable source) then Gibson's aircraft "crashed in flames - according to a Dutch eye-witness...." (Bomber Command War Diaries). Doesn't sound much like a torch in the cockpit....
No, twasn't digger, I think. Nogger, maybe?
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Recent findings have suggested that Guy Gibson, Amy Johnson, Glen Miller and Douglas Bader were all downed by friendly fire
As shocking as that almost one in three figure may seem, is it so unbelievable when you consider that you're dealing with very scared, very stressed young men, (some of them not particularly well trained), with a gun in their hands, many of whom will shoot first and ask questions later. There are also the 'grand mistakes' by leaders where fire is directed to the wrong co-ordinates. For obvious reasons, great efforts are made to disguise such mistakes.
The example that always comes to mind for me when I think of 'blue on blue' incidents is the invasion of Sicily, where someone with absolutely no understanding of human nature routed the C-47 fleet carring the American paratrooprs over the invasion fleet. One excitable gunner on one of the many hundreds of ships in the invasion fleet started firing - and every other gunner on every other ship promptly followed suite. I can't recall how many aircraft were lost -(but it was many) - or how many of the airborne troops were killed or injured, but the casulaties were such that the airborne element of the invasion was more or less made totally ineffective.
When the Korean War started, the first mission the P-51s of 75 Sqn RAAF were tasked to carry out involved destroying a troop train under the direction of an American FAC. It was South Korean troop train. If my memory serves me correctly, the South Koreans suffered 450 casualties in that attack.
Wensleydale ..Doesn't sound much like a torch in the cockpit....
Dambusters historian Jim Shortland believes that because Gibson was unfamiliar with Mosquitoes, he may have simply forgotten to flip the switch that turned on the second petrol tank
According to an article by Roy Nesbit (former RAF Coastal Command Nav-Beauforts) in Aeroplane Gibson was not shot down. According to Nesbitt, the aircraft may have suffered engine failure through fuel starvation. Gibson had apparently only flown the Mossie a handful of times before the fatal flight, and only once at night. He'd also never flown the aircraft to such a distant target, the importance of this being that he'd never had to use the fuel tank selectors behind the seat. Nesbitt's theory is that Gibson,unfamiliar with the selectors and groping around for them in the dark, selected an empty tank. Eye witness reports from the time state that a light was seen in the cockpit shortly before the crash and it's thought that they may have used a torch or switched on an interior light to try and see what position the selectors were in after the engines started spluttering. This in turn would've done their night vision no favours, which may also have contributed to the crash
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Rolling 20.
I was told the same story while visiting the Dambuster's museum at Scampton last month.
Apparently during the war, 617 sqdn. were known as The DumbB@stards and disliked by many of their fellow squadrons.
I was told the same story while visiting the Dambuster's museum at Scampton last month.
Apparently during the war, 617 sqdn. were known as The DumbB@stards and disliked by many of their fellow squadrons.
Cunning Artificer
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Gibson was Master Bomber for the raid.
Recent findings have suggested that Guy Gibson, Amy Johnson, Glen Miller and Douglas Bader were all downed by friendly fire
Anyway, pse keep up the speculation as clearly the truth can only be brought out through internet theorising...
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Perhaps you can enlighten us as to what kind of sound a torch makes?
Martin Middlebrook also points out that Gibson's radio had worked perfectly throughout the sortie - as Master Bomber it would be a go-no go item - yet there is speculation about radio trouble. There are eyewhitness reports of the aircraft on fire.... methinks that, like Bader's loss, there is some deliberate misinformation out there to muddy the waters. Lots of theories - little evidence to draw an accurate conclusion.