TCAS
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
Age: 79
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TCAS
TCAS
Not sure if this is the correct forum to ask this question, but are Mil rotary aircraft fitted with TCAS?
My house seems to be right under a regular route for very low flying Chinooks which I think is great, except that I nearly met one yesterday at about 200 ft just as I was climbing out from my helipad. Would a big White H get recorded by them for future reference or is it just a case of Mk 1 eyeball?
I always squawk 7000 mode S but wonder if it has any effect.
Not sure if this is the correct forum to ask this question, but are Mil rotary aircraft fitted with TCAS?
My house seems to be right under a regular route for very low flying Chinooks which I think is great, except that I nearly met one yesterday at about 200 ft just as I was climbing out from my helipad. Would a big White H get recorded by them for future reference or is it just a case of Mk 1 eyeball?
I always squawk 7000 mode S but wonder if it has any effect.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Who knows where this week.......
Posts: 149
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some aircraft are TCAS equipped, some aren't - I'm sure a Whokka mate will confirm or deny as required. And if you're operating under a busy helo transit route, a quick call to Odiham flight planning might be an idea...
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Bouncing around the Holding pattern
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would be worth getting a dialogue going with Odiham Flt Ops. A bit of friendly coordination goes a long way.
I find it unlikely that the Wokkas have TCAS, so they'll appreciate knowing that your pad is active.
I find it unlikely that the Wokkas have TCAS, so they'll appreciate knowing that your pad is active.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Muffin,
Is your HLS marked on aviation maps? If not then crews will have other things to be looking at rather than seeing if every piece of real estate has a huge white H on it. That is not said to sound flippant, I mean they actually genuinly do not have time too look for every eventuality that might happen on the ground.
It's difficult enough with horses, avoids, chicken farms, farm strips, heli avoids, LFA boundaries, etc. etc.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to speak to Odiham AND Benson, Middle Wallop, Yeovilton, Wattisham, Dishforth, Culdrose Ops. The easiest option is probably AIDU at Northolt to have you HLS marked on the latest maps.
I hope this helps.
HG
Is your HLS marked on aviation maps? If not then crews will have other things to be looking at rather than seeing if every piece of real estate has a huge white H on it. That is not said to sound flippant, I mean they actually genuinly do not have time too look for every eventuality that might happen on the ground.
It's difficult enough with horses, avoids, chicken farms, farm strips, heli avoids, LFA boundaries, etc. etc.
The best piece of advice I can give you is to speak to Odiham AND Benson, Middle Wallop, Yeovilton, Wattisham, Dishforth, Culdrose Ops. The easiest option is probably AIDU at Northolt to have you HLS marked on the latest maps.
I hope this helps.
HG
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Wilts
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A better question might be "Why haven't ALL UK military ac been fitted with TCAS?"
Even the Grob Tutor is now TCAS equipped. I find it inexplicable that SH in particular, with potentially large numbers of pax, have not been fitted with this cheap, off-the-shelf flight safety enhancement. I would call it corporate negligence.
Even the Grob Tutor is now TCAS equipped. I find it inexplicable that SH in particular, with potentially large numbers of pax, have not been fitted with this cheap, off-the-shelf flight safety enhancement. I would call it corporate negligence.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Behind the wire.
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TCAS isn't as good as you would have thought! In it's comfort zone ie. above 1000ft and below 300kts it's fine, however, stick it in a fast jet and it is at best unreliable and at worst inaccurate and distracting. I know this is a wokka related thread but everywhere I go now all I hear is TCAS would mitigate the risk and it's just not true. I believe there was a close call between a Tutor and a Hawk recently at low level and both have TCAS!
I believe there was a close call between a Tutor and a Hawk recently at low level and both have TCAS!
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Behind the wire.
Posts: 307
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed, may it did prevent a mid air. But to all those that seem to believe TCAS will always warn of a potential collision I'm afraid your wrong. From what I've heard the Tutor saw/heard nothing and the Hawk was given a traffic call within a few thousand feet.
No RAF SH cabs have it as far as I know. The Merlin Mk3a came with it but it was disabled as it wasn't supported, just like the radar ( and that of the Chinook Mk3). I do my best to be loyal, but sometimes you just have to cry with the short-sightedness of it all.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
God forbid some well known flying organisation might have bought say, six ac and then removed the TCAS because they couldn't afford to fund it. What would Hadden-Cave make of that?
it is at best unreliable and at worst inaccurate and distracting.
The present tutor display is pretty decent. It's well integrated into the HSI, so is part of the normal scan and very good for keeping SA. The problem with the kit is that as commented above, when it works it's bloody brilliant. However, sometimes it just doesn't pick up something, and even worse sometimes it picks something up but puts them in the wrong place. This is, I'm led to believe, an issue with the several meters of spare cable for the antenna that they've carefully coiled up in the fuselage....
The best bit about it is the height readout for other aircraft, being just about the only bit that doesn't usually lie to you and gives you a very big comfort factor!
The best bit about it is the height readout for other aircraft, being just about the only bit that doesn't usually lie to you and gives you a very big comfort factor!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Here and there, occasionally at home.
Age: 56
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
muffin
In the circumstances you describe it is unlikely that TCAS would have been much use anyway.
The following applies to most commercially available TCAS systems.
When a TCAS 'sees' another TCAS fitted platform indicating below 370ft agl (Mode 3C or Mode S), it does not display that low level contact because TCAS assumes that the platform is in the process of landing/taking off - one of the many filters applied to prevent saturation overload.
If you and the other platform are both between 370ft and 920ft, then you should both get Traffic Advisories but no Resolution Alerts (filter to prevent TCAS trying to point one of the aircraft at the ground.
Oddly enough, one way around the low-level issue is to just Squawk Mode 3A (no height feed). Because TCAS can detect the Mode 3A but no height feed it will display you as other traffic (on systems capable of displaying Other/Proximate Traffic). I am not advocating this behaviour in any way, it is just a function of the system and is for information only!
I agree with previous posters, contact both NATS and No1AIDU and highlight your concerns. TCAS is damned useful but not the necessarily always the answer.
The following applies to most commercially available TCAS systems.
When a TCAS 'sees' another TCAS fitted platform indicating below 370ft agl (Mode 3C or Mode S), it does not display that low level contact because TCAS assumes that the platform is in the process of landing/taking off - one of the many filters applied to prevent saturation overload.
If you and the other platform are both between 370ft and 920ft, then you should both get Traffic Advisories but no Resolution Alerts (filter to prevent TCAS trying to point one of the aircraft at the ground.
Oddly enough, one way around the low-level issue is to just Squawk Mode 3A (no height feed). Because TCAS can detect the Mode 3A but no height feed it will display you as other traffic (on systems capable of displaying Other/Proximate Traffic). I am not advocating this behaviour in any way, it is just a function of the system and is for information only!
I agree with previous posters, contact both NATS and No1AIDU and highlight your concerns. TCAS is damned useful but not the necessarily always the answer.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: SW England
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no requirement for TCAS for Military Rotary Wing aircraft, confirmed by DE&S Safety gurus. TCAS works only if both parties have it fitted and also best at altitude. Apparently at the sort of altitudes helicopters operate there are lots of false alarms.
The Merlin 3A may have come with it fitted but again not a requirement and comes with a training and currency burden.
The Merlin 3A may have come with it fitted but again not a requirement and comes with a training and currency burden.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Here and there, occasionally at home.
Age: 56
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funky
I wasn't clear enough in my post above. Only one platform needs to be TCAS fitted. So long as the other platform is at least Sqauwking Mode 3C then the TCAS fitted platform will still 'see' it a react accordingly (As long as it is above 370ft). It just won't be a co-ordinated event between 2 TCAS's.
As I also said, assuming that most Helo's operate below 370ft agl, there won't be any 'false alarms' because TCAS suppresses all TA/RAs when the operating platform is below 370ft (Other Traffic may be displayed in some cases, but only if they are Sqwauking Mode 3A, not C).
Finally, using the training/currency expense card is just an excuse. I know DE&S has a whole bunch of TCAS courseware/CBT that could easily be modified to a particular fit (all TCAS operate in a fairly similar way). How do I know, 'cos I wrote most of it, as well as delivered and taught it, in the classroom and the simulator (before the Government scrapped the aircraft).
As I also said, assuming that most Helo's operate below 370ft agl, there won't be any 'false alarms' because TCAS suppresses all TA/RAs when the operating platform is below 370ft (Other Traffic may be displayed in some cases, but only if they are Sqwauking Mode 3A, not C).
Finally, using the training/currency expense card is just an excuse. I know DE&S has a whole bunch of TCAS courseware/CBT that could easily be modified to a particular fit (all TCAS operate in a fairly similar way). How do I know, 'cos I wrote most of it, as well as delivered and taught it, in the classroom and the simulator (before the Government scrapped the aircraft).
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funky,
Your use of the words 'DE&S' and 'Safety Gurus' convinced me that you don't know what you are talking about. Unless that was sarcasm in which case I apologise.
TCAS does work down below, very well. Are the regs changing to make it mandatory for some controlled airspace. National standby rotary might find themselves shut out of London for example.
Your use of the words 'DE&S' and 'Safety Gurus' convinced me that you don't know what you are talking about. Unless that was sarcasm in which case I apologise.
TCAS does work down below, very well. Are the regs changing to make it mandatory for some controlled airspace. National standby rotary might find themselves shut out of London for example.
Last edited by high spirits; 2nd Oct 2011 at 07:10.
Sfo- the tutor TAS (As distinct from tcas ) will give you display & alerts from traffic at any height. Actually useful as you can 'see' aircraft on the ground at minor aerodromes/before they get airborne ....