Morale in the Armed Forces
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VR, in all honesty, most of the Admin Branch do not understand how tricky life is outside of SHQ sometimes as they do not get exposed to the constant grind of Sqn Detachments and fluidity that makes up the front end of the train.
Any yet it's always someone exposed to that constant grind of detachments that gets Christmas Day Orderly Officer for example, not one of the Monday-to-Friday 'Base Support Wing' wallahs!
Join Date: Sep 2005
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The threats of PVR are very branch and trade specific. No worries if you cost 99p to train and work in PSF, bit more of a problem for the RAF when it comes to the individuals who operate at the sharp end (ATC, Engineering and some aircrew!) and cost a significant amount to train.
The number of PVRs is fairly significant, but nowhere near as significant as the number that seem to be taking an option and/or leaving at the 38 point. With corporate experience outside of the desert environment and low tech threat area being at a premium, we are going to do serious damage if we cant retain at least some of our old and bolds.
Having spoke to a few techies, mannings policy of scaling back some ranks by 25% is frankly barking. Many the engineering world are going to lose have experience of their type that cant be replaced by a quick course at cosford. The civvie world would be aghast at the thought of binning individuals as they are reaching their prime, on the basis that they are not progressing up the management ladder and instead are more than happy with their lot in their current rank. Is there an arguement for retention incentives or at least 5-6 year postings for a few star individuals who are happy in current rank and in their current role? Here is a tip, why not retain the guy who can clear the AV snag in 5 minutes whilst we wait to launch on tight crew duty, rather than the guy that runs the tea bar and gets written up well for it? Most of those engineers recently leaving for sunnier climes didnt only do it for the cash, job security probably also played a part. They were some of our best people. I also think the devisiveness of pay 2000 that sees a psf blondie payed the same or more as someone completeing aircraft engineering trade training at Cosford is something that needs sorting pronto. Chances with the blunties controlling the purse strings? Not a chance.
The number of PVRs is fairly significant, but nowhere near as significant as the number that seem to be taking an option and/or leaving at the 38 point. With corporate experience outside of the desert environment and low tech threat area being at a premium, we are going to do serious damage if we cant retain at least some of our old and bolds.
Having spoke to a few techies, mannings policy of scaling back some ranks by 25% is frankly barking. Many the engineering world are going to lose have experience of their type that cant be replaced by a quick course at cosford. The civvie world would be aghast at the thought of binning individuals as they are reaching their prime, on the basis that they are not progressing up the management ladder and instead are more than happy with their lot in their current rank. Is there an arguement for retention incentives or at least 5-6 year postings for a few star individuals who are happy in current rank and in their current role? Here is a tip, why not retain the guy who can clear the AV snag in 5 minutes whilst we wait to launch on tight crew duty, rather than the guy that runs the tea bar and gets written up well for it? Most of those engineers recently leaving for sunnier climes didnt only do it for the cash, job security probably also played a part. They were some of our best people. I also think the devisiveness of pay 2000 that sees a psf blondie payed the same or more as someone completeing aircraft engineering trade training at Cosford is something that needs sorting pronto. Chances with the blunties controlling the purse strings? Not a chance.
The sad fact of the matter is that Engineers are massively undervalued by the RAF, and never seem to get praise for thier work
. I have walked into a basic mechanic job whilst I accrue log book entries & a years civil aircraft experience before I can use my B1/2 licence, but it is already paying me more than a top level SAC(T)/JT by a considerable margin. The amount of experience the RAF is losing at the moment is horrific, Of my entire shift on leaving, only about 10% of people were planning on staying, with many people leaving at 9 or 12 year exit points that are not reflected in PVR stats.Personally I really hope that they end up with a huge experience & manpower black hole, then the powers that be may be forced to improve conditions for the poor sods who remain in.
Fo anyone considering leaving, at the moment, in my opinion, the grass is green & lush this side of the fence, compared to the sandy dunes that are left on the other.
Don't be afraid to make the step!
Join Date: Aug 2007
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SAC(T) Sootie/rigger
I don't find it surprising in the slightest that there are those who accumulated literally decades of engineering training and experience in the RAF who eventually left (or were forced from) the service with no actual formally recognised qualifications, such as your licence(s).
MoD comes under fire after scrapping barracks upgrade - Telegraph
There is obviously more to this than meets the eye; however, perception is everything!!!!!
There is obviously more to this than meets the eye; however, perception is everything!!!!!
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Glad rag, I did 12 months initial training to qualify as a propulsion tech, then did 7 weeks of Herc Engine & Prop Q course, a week propellor dynamic balancing course (including vibration & harmonics analysis), 7 week rigger conversion course, 7 weeks of Herc Airframe Q course, numerous other courses of various duration for line training, ongoing training etc.
What you cannot replace is working with people who have years of experience, I learnt off some very very good engineers, with years of on type experience. This is what will be missing in a few years time, just before I left the service, there was a growing problem that most people on shift had less than 2 years experience on type.
What you cannot replace is working with people who have years of experience, I learnt off some very very good engineers, with years of on type experience. This is what will be missing in a few years time, just before I left the service, there was a growing problem that most people on shift had less than 2 years experience on type.
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Simple.... Stop Dripping and do something else
Guys Girls,
Its simple....Civvy streat awaits....
I appreciate that we have loyalty and are vey proud of serving our country but the powers that be and so called decision makers are not standing up for you.
You might not know it but the skills you have obtained in the service are simply massive. simple.
You may seem nervous and worried about the move from MOD to civvy street and it may seem scarey but if you get your resettlement correct you become a very valuable product. Despite world economy down turns etc etc, Aviation is on the up and civvy street needs people who can think on there feet / multi-task and deliver.
Simple.
Its simple....Civvy streat awaits....
I appreciate that we have loyalty and are vey proud of serving our country but the powers that be and so called decision makers are not standing up for you.
You might not know it but the skills you have obtained in the service are simply massive. simple.
You may seem nervous and worried about the move from MOD to civvy street and it may seem scarey but if you get your resettlement correct you become a very valuable product. Despite world economy down turns etc etc, Aviation is on the up and civvy street needs people who can think on there feet / multi-task and deliver.
Simple.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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selecting the redunders
I have been out there for many years now. One of the events that made me decide to take my 38 was the way the 74ish redundancies were managed
There were plenty of takers for the Flt Lt slots so only volunteers needed to go. Very few takers for the Sqn Ldr slots so lots of selected people
The result of this was that idle Flt Lts stayed, Flt Lts who had worked hard, done a bit extra and just got promotion were dumped. It seemed to me that the Sqn Ldrs selected should have been offered a rank drop to Flt Lt allowing more of the idle ones to be selected. Surely it was wrong to keep those who sat comfy and reject those who struggled upwards
There were plenty of takers for the Flt Lt slots so only volunteers needed to go. Very few takers for the Sqn Ldr slots so lots of selected people
The result of this was that idle Flt Lts stayed, Flt Lts who had worked hard, done a bit extra and just got promotion were dumped. It seemed to me that the Sqn Ldrs selected should have been offered a rank drop to Flt Lt allowing more of the idle ones to be selected. Surely it was wrong to keep those who sat comfy and reject those who struggled upwards
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Tinribs
Those were the days of the CinC Training Command who stated "There is no such thing as a bad Student - there are only bad Instructors."
The corollary to that was that it was almost impossible to fail a Student Pilot; thus Units began to fill with "Pilots" who should not have been given control of a tricycle let alone an Aeroplane.
A lot of people saw the "writing on the wall" and decided to leave.
Those were the days of the CinC Training Command who stated "There is no such thing as a bad Student - there are only bad Instructors."
The corollary to that was that it was almost impossible to fail a Student Pilot; thus Units began to fill with "Pilots" who should not have been given control of a tricycle let alone an Aeroplane.
A lot of people saw the "writing on the wall" and decided to leave.
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Who on earth were those 2 percent of officers who thought that morale was high!!!! CAS and the rest of the SLT me thinks.
In the beginning there was a Plan.
And then came Assumptions.
And the Assumptions were without form.
And the plan was without substance.
And darkness was on the face of the Workers.
And they spoke among themselves, saying
"It is a crock of ****, and it stinks".
And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and said
"It is a pale of dung, and none may obide the odor thereof".
And the Supervisors went unto their Managers, saying
"It is a container of excrement, and it is very strong, such that none can abide by it".
And the Managers went unto their Directors saying
"It is a vessel of fertilizer, and none may abide its strength".
And the Directors spoke among themselves, saying one to another
"It contains that which aids plant growth, and it is very strong".
And the Directors went unto the Vice Presidents, saying unto them
"It promotes growth, and it is very powerful".
And the Vice Presidents went unto President saying unto him
"This new Plan will actively promote growth and vigor of this company, with powerful effects".
And the President looked upon the Plan and saw it was good.
And the Plan became Policy.
This is how **** happens.
Just like Wyler (post 10) I have been in nearly 30 years, and have heard talk of "likely mass PVRs" many times in the past - none of which has ever materialised.
Yes, there will be a small spike in PVRs shortly, as many of those that applied for redundancy and didn't get it elect to leave anyway. This is not unexpected. If someone is seriously planning to leave and has started the process, job hunting, qualification gathering, considering a relocation, etc, their mind set is firmly on leaving. If they don't get voluntary redundancy they either try again in the next tranche or PVR, they have already made the mental leap and just wish to get on with the process and the rest of their lives.
But as for a mass exodus because of low morale, forget it. The economy is not particularly buoyant out there. The relevant statistic is that the RAF had 930 redundancy slots, and 620 applications - hardly oversubscribed, and not indicative of a rush for the door in terms of future PVRs.
Yes, there will be a small spike in PVRs shortly, as many of those that applied for redundancy and didn't get it elect to leave anyway. This is not unexpected. If someone is seriously planning to leave and has started the process, job hunting, qualification gathering, considering a relocation, etc, their mind set is firmly on leaving. If they don't get voluntary redundancy they either try again in the next tranche or PVR, they have already made the mental leap and just wish to get on with the process and the rest of their lives.
But as for a mass exodus because of low morale, forget it. The economy is not particularly buoyant out there. The relevant statistic is that the RAF had 930 redundancy slots, and 620 applications - hardly oversubscribed, and not indicative of a rush for the door in terms of future PVRs.
Kengineer:
It was always thus: I chaired some redundancy boards in the 1995/6 redundancies - various techie trade sgts IIRC. It was heartbreaking the quality of the good sgts who were tagged as low on the "inverse promotion board concept". We did our best to keep a range of the "low promotion but good, solid technician" cadre - but we still lost a lot of good guys.
What you cannot replace is working with people who have years of experience, I learnt off some very very good engineers, with years of on type experience. This is what will be missing in a few years time, just before I left the service, there was a growing problem that most people on shift had less than 2 years experience on type.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
One of the events that made me decide to take my 38 was the way the 74ish redundancies were managed
There were plenty of takers for the Flt Lt slots so only volunteers needed to go. Very few takers for the Sqn Ldr slots so lots of selected people
The result of this was that idle Flt Lts stayed, Flt Lts who had worked hard, done a bit extra and just got promotion were dumped.
There were plenty of takers for the Flt Lt slots so only volunteers needed to go. Very few takers for the Sqn Ldr slots so lots of selected people
The result of this was that idle Flt Lts stayed, Flt Lts who had worked hard, done a bit extra and just got promotion were dumped.
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XMAS Day SDO
In the days when we had real leaders I was on a Station where the Station Commander did Xmas Day SDO and went round the Messes and inspected the defaulters and the whole range of other niff-naff too!
I always was under the impression that, `the bloke at the top carried the can`.
Surely it's about time the most senior officers of all the three main Services, got off their collective backsides & considered the plight of all those in the Armed Forces to day. The Government certainly don't care & many of the population, with the notable exception of those honorable folk who live in Wotton Bassett, will only call for the military when there is a major crisis. The Servicemen & Women only have the CDS & others to act & speak up for them, gentlemen, do you actually exist or not?
Surely it's about time the most senior officers of all the three main Services, got off their collective backsides & considered the plight of all those in the Armed Forces to day. The Government certainly don't care & many of the population, with the notable exception of those honorable folk who live in Wotton Bassett, will only call for the military when there is a major crisis. The Servicemen & Women only have the CDS & others to act & speak up for them, gentlemen, do you actually exist or not?
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I PVRd in 93 'cos I could see the writing on the wall then; "peace dividend" et al. Additionally all I had to look forward to were Command HQ, MOD and PMC staff postings having done my last Station tour.
What worried me then was the amount of flt lt/fg off arse lickers moving up the ladder. Don't get me wrong - there were some very good ones as well but, looking at the promotion lists, I guess most of them eventually jumped ship as well. That left the uber arse lickers and I do see their names in lights at the top of the board.
And don't forget you blunty bashers - those at the top are mainly aircrew.
What worried me then was the amount of flt lt/fg off arse lickers moving up the ladder. Don't get me wrong - there were some very good ones as well but, looking at the promotion lists, I guess most of them eventually jumped ship as well. That left the uber arse lickers and I do see their names in lights at the top of the board.
And don't forget you blunty bashers - those at the top are mainly aircrew.
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Sadly I was very naive for a long time, and believed that being very good at my job, having all the possible qualifications relating to my job current, volunteering for OOA dets etc would get me promoted. It was only seeing someone who was a terrible engineer, but very good at politics, secondary duties by the handful ( meaning virtually no time actually working!!) & being part of a station club populated by oic's getting promoted that really bought it home to me that being good at your job has no factor on promotion.
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A2QFI
That's the RAF that I was in. My son is in a different RAF, same uniform & same buildings, different focus.
In the days when we had real leaders I was on a Station where the Station Commander did Xmas Day SDO and went round the Messes and inspected the defaulters and the whole range of other niff-naff too!
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Redundancy Handling
I have heard from many a source that the Air Command and SVPA are handling the whole redundancy issue really poorly. They assigned an SO3 as the focal point who got 500 plus e-mails on the day of the signal. Standby for lots of complaints and more press leakage on this.
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That is quite interesting as Green did it pretty well from my perspective bar a few parochial issues.
There were people who knew before R-Day as a few CO-types had demanded to know based on the need to plan their manning for next year...which is fair enough really.
G
There were people who knew before R-Day as a few CO-types had demanded to know based on the need to plan their manning for next year...which is fair enough really.
G
