Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Serious question for a QFI

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Serious question for a QFI

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 31st Aug 2011, 09:42
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: down south
Age: 77
Posts: 13,226
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Newt, good morning mate.

You are more clever than I thought - you replied before I posted!!!!!
Lightning Mate is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 09:47
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
newt

lower mate, lower
jindabyne is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 09:49
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: down south
Age: 77
Posts: 13,226
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Newt doesn't do low mate!!

Spent a lot of his time up at 100 feet.
Lightning Mate is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 09:59
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Quality Banter

Spent a lot of his time up at 100 feet.


Now that IS funny.
airpolice is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 11:53
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North Pole
Posts: 970
Received 17 Likes on 6 Posts
Clearly I'm still hypoxic from the experience!!

Must be all the clear air in Scotland
newt is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 12:14
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lightning Mate
In straight and level flight lift must exceed weight because the tailplane is generating a downforce for longitudinal stability.
The sum of all lift in straight and level flight (positive and negative, from all parts of the plane) = gravity, otherwise you would be going up or down.
cats_five is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 12:16
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: down south
Age: 77
Posts: 13,226
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Owza fishin' mate?
Lightning Mate is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 12:26
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: down south
Age: 77
Posts: 13,226
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The sum of all lift in straight and level flight (positive and negative, from all parts of the plane) = gravity, otherwise you would be going up or down.
Sorry buddy - lift is a FORCE and cannot equal gravity because that is an ACCELERATION.

Back to Sir Isacc Newton.
Lightning Mate is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 12:39
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Lightning Mate is right.

Lift is defined as a force.

However, formally, 'g' is referred to as the "acceleration due to gravity" to avoid this kind of argument.

The force on a mass caused by the acceleration due to gravity is, formally, weight.

The forces on an aircraft are in balance in straight, UNACCELERATED flight, which fits a constant rate of climb or descent as well as straight and level.

I haven't seen anyone correctly use momentum yet.
If you want a clear physical explanation of any of this, please PM me. I do this for a living.

Now, can we get back to interesting stuff like victory roll trimming and LL jokes?

F3WMB
MRAeS, MInstP
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 13:26
  #50 (permalink)  
ktk
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
not much time to trim here!! Mind you if he got it wrong!!
ktk is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 14:55
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Banished (twice) to the pointless forest
Posts: 1,558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Lightning Mate is right.

Fox3, ffs no more of that, it will go to his head and then we'll be right in the deep end.

SI Units. (Expressions to make you sigh)

The way I was tought is that Isaac Newton discovered Gravity when an Apple fell on his head. Four Apples = 1 Pound therefore 1 pound = four Newtons.

Kilowatts is what the Electric fire used to run on and a Litre's like a Metre only better 'cause it's wetter.
airpolice is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 15:54
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 26,808
Received 270 Likes on 109 Posts
The dear old Frightening was so ancient that its ASI was calibrated in 'furlongs per fortnight'....

Is there any truth in the story that the fuel gauge read 'Empty....Fumes....Not enough....Still Not Enough....All you're getting but really not enough'

Or that the altimeter read 'Ground pounders....Mud movers....Learning Command....Truckies....Air Defence Sky Gods and V-bombers only'?
BEagle is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 16:23
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North Pole
Posts: 970
Received 17 Likes on 6 Posts
Close BEagle but no cigar!!
newt is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 16:31
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,895
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
From what I've seen, the Altimeter should be

Groundpounders, Buccaneers, War, Falkland Islands, and then a biiig gap before mud movers. Americans are somewhere above Learning Command.

Lightning top speed 4 million furlongs per fortnight (though that's an awful lot of AARs in a fortnight!)
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 17:20
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Not here
Age: 45
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I think.... momentum is mass x velocity. Velocity is a vector, thus momentum is a vector too, i.e. it has both magnitude and direction.

What this means is that, even at constant "speed" momentum changes around the loop (it swings around with the aircraft's velocity). Newton said roughly that "the rate of change of momentum is directly proportional to the applied force and takes place in the direction of that force".

To loop the loop, we need an extra bit of force perpendicular to the momentum vector to unbalance the forces on the aeroplane, i.e. to accelerate the aircraft mass towards the centre of the loop. This is produced by pulling back on the stick to increase angle of attack, increasing the lift generated by the wings, whilst maintaining airspeed with the throttle.

Last edited by FCSoverride; 31st Aug 2011 at 17:22. Reason: attempting more clarity!
FCSoverride is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 19:56
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Longton, Lancs, UK
Age: 80
Posts: 1,527
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Nobody's mentioned nibble (and flap)
jindabyne is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 21:11
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
my go at answering.

FCSOveride has a great answer for you right there.

I always like to relate answers to real world examples. Therefore: talk to your son next time you go around a roundabout. Ok, it's lateral 'g', but the principle is the same (get him to lean 90 degrees to the right if it helps).

Before you his the roundabout, there is no lateral 'g', right? Start going round it and he will be thrown to the outside of the car. Keep going round, and the 'g' force will remain. A loop or a break is similar.

In the case of a loop though, we already at 1 (not zero) 'g'. If I pull up into a loop with 4 'g', then that's what I will feel (initially). At the top of the loop I will be doing the same thing with my aircraft but now the plus 1 'g' I would normally feel is acting the other way so I would feel about 2 'g'. (3 'g' in the vertical). You need to picture "plus 1 'g'" acting vertically downwards at all times.

In truth no-one flies constant 'g' loops - it wouldn't look like a loop. A barrel roll is different.

For breaks, if you have the power, 4 'g' will remain the same forever. Depending on aircraft type and power available, it may reduce as, has already been pointed out, increased lift increases drag, reducing speed (unless you have more power).
The_Agent is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2011, 21:38
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North Pole
Posts: 970
Received 17 Likes on 6 Posts
Watch out Jindy as you can be banned for being rude!! Nibbles and flaps is very close to the edge!
newt is offline  
Old 1st Sep 2011, 07:02
  #59 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Teetering Towers - somewhere in the Shires
Age: 74
Posts: 3,697
Received 50 Likes on 24 Posts
And if, by chance, you have a helium balloon in the back of the car as you drive your son around the roundabout (traffic circle), he (and you) may be surprised at the way IT leans.........
teeteringhead is offline  
Old 2nd Sep 2011, 07:27
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: down south
Age: 77
Posts: 13,226
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
not much time to trim here!! Mind you if he got it wrong!!
Did I detect a bit of roll/yaw coupling?

S'all abaht B/A ratio innit.

Morning Newt.
Lightning Mate is offline  


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.