If only it wasn't civilianised
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: East Midlands
Age: 84
Posts: 1,511
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you Cazatou. I think I made it clear that I was NOT comparing the Military with Civilians. I was suggesting that there might be some differential pay applied between people working in Hampshire and Suffolk. It is nothing to do with the military, they have handed the work over to civilians, for whatever reason good or bad, and are now harvesting the fruits of their financial folly.
Last edited by A2QFI; 24th Aug 2011 at 15:48.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: 2 m South of Radstock VRP
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Either that MoD Plod civilian is carrying firearm or he's very pleased to see us. A sight to be seen at most HM Naval Base Main Gates.
PS
As will be seen from the photograph URL, it is from the MoD Wedsite; Ministry of Defence | home.
Perhaps it reflects that a certain Berkshire bomb factory gets some its bang bullion from certain nuclear power stations.
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 20th Sep 2011 at 08:05.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting that "unite" have got their claws into this, what is the breakdown in numbers of permies to connies ?.
Most mil are ignorant of the fact that there are different "levels" of workforce on any given site.
Most mil are ignorant of the fact that there are different "levels" of workforce on any given site.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: suffolk
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, should anyone be interested in the facts and not just here for a right good bitch, heres the story: Westlands have the contract to fix the Apache. They sub contract the maintenance side to Morson Wynwith. I've been there over 10 years, MW have been there 18 months. In that time (18 months) the union membership has trippled (To around 120), you can draw your own conclusions later why. At a head count at work today, we could think of only 3 people in the union that isn't ex-service. Over 50% RAF, double figures former Wattisham personell.
My grade at Middle Wallop gets around 6k more than me (for example). At the last pay negotiations, we pointed out that was really unfair as the cost of living disparity had closed to the point where it is now more expensive to live in Suffolk than Hampshire (thats worked on house prices, I don't know if any other factors are involved). MW agreed and said if we took a token pay rise for that year, they'd increase the pay over 3 years to give us parity with colleagues at Wallop. Which we were all very happy to do of course. This is all above board through the union staff by the way.
12 months later at the pay review, MW now tell us that that agreement was in honour only, that it certainly wasn't leagally binding and offered us another token pay rise (4% over 3 years I think it was), take it or leave it. We were shown the figures of how they could afford it all the year before, its a fixed 4 year contract so the moneys still there, they just seem to have 'changed their minds'. Or lied, you choose.
Now my cheery chums, in your worlds it might be the 'patriotic thing' to drop your kecks, bend over and take it but in mine its not. Westlands have had their obscene profit, MW theirs, I'd just like to get the same as the bloke a few countys away doing the same thing. Who's the greedy traitor in this story? Not me anyway.
My grade at Middle Wallop gets around 6k more than me (for example). At the last pay negotiations, we pointed out that was really unfair as the cost of living disparity had closed to the point where it is now more expensive to live in Suffolk than Hampshire (thats worked on house prices, I don't know if any other factors are involved). MW agreed and said if we took a token pay rise for that year, they'd increase the pay over 3 years to give us parity with colleagues at Wallop. Which we were all very happy to do of course. This is all above board through the union staff by the way.
12 months later at the pay review, MW now tell us that that agreement was in honour only, that it certainly wasn't leagally binding and offered us another token pay rise (4% over 3 years I think it was), take it or leave it. We were shown the figures of how they could afford it all the year before, its a fixed 4 year contract so the moneys still there, they just seem to have 'changed their minds'. Or lied, you choose.
Now my cheery chums, in your worlds it might be the 'patriotic thing' to drop your kecks, bend over and take it but in mine its not. Westlands have had their obscene profit, MW theirs, I'd just like to get the same as the bloke a few countys away doing the same thing. Who's the greedy traitor in this story? Not me anyway.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: by the Great Salt Lake, USA
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been out of work for 17 months now, due to corporate cost-cutting.
Your employer is not only preserving your jobs but managing to increase your pay (token or not, its still an increase).
I just can't feel any sympathy whatsoever.
Your employer is not only preserving your jobs but managing to increase your pay (token or not, its still an increase).
I just can't feel any sympathy whatsoever.
So if a bus driver in Plymouth is paid more than a bus driver in Aberdeen, is that unfair? Or just an example of a commercial company paying what it considers the going rate for the job which will enable it to attract and retain adequate staff in a specific location.....?
Is it Morson Wynwith doing the servicing at both Middle Wallop (too many MW abbreviation options) and Wattisham, or just Wattisham?
Even if it is the same company I'm sure there are lots of other examples of a company paying different wages at different geographical locations in the UK.
As my children grew up I tried to break it gently to them that the world actually isn't a "fair" place.....
Is it Morson Wynwith doing the servicing at both Middle Wallop (too many MW abbreviation options) and Wattisham, or just Wattisham?
Even if it is the same company I'm sure there are lots of other examples of a company paying different wages at different geographical locations in the UK.
As my children grew up I tried to break it gently to them that the world actually isn't a "fair" place.....
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: suffolk
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pay deal was all budgeted for on a fixed contract with a built in market adjuster. The money is still there we're just not aloud it any more. I tell my kids not to tell lies.
Its the same company at both sites. Usually, an area thats more expensive to live in pays more. Its the other way round here.
Its the same company at both sites. Usually, an area thats more expensive to live in pays more. Its the other way round here.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Aylesbury
Age: 58
Posts: 378
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norty:I'm not saying that the company has behaved honourably, it would appear on first impression that it has not. So, if thats whats going to keep on happening, vote with your feet. Are these the kind of people you want to work for, if this is what they're going to do?After all, they need you as much as you need them, right?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"would never have happened in the old days" is mentioned
I seem to remember reading somewhere 3,700,000 days were lost to strike action in 1944.(!)
It was, it seems, some sort of record.
I seem to remember reading somewhere 3,700,000 days were lost to strike action in 1944.(!)
It was, it seems, some sort of record.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HAR HAR.....I think Currawong meant "man-days"...."Man" ,of course, indicating Homo sapiens, as opposed to only those of the meat n' two veg gender
Sounds like around 6 mill. workers had a half-day off,- not bad , really.
Sounds like around 6 mill. workers had a half-day off,- not bad , really.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nortybouy
That was an interesting post, and maybe you may need to consider that many other poster here have a good insight into how business actually works in the real world.
Your post could be read in a way that suggests that your employer should actually want to look after you! That is something that is truly laughable to most employees of any flavour, and especially to military ones.
A few things spring to mind for me though. But first I need to state where I'm coming from on this, so you can perhaps understand my viewpoint. Employers, and especially military bosses lie to employees. I was once asked to take a quick helicopter trip, do a twenty minute run, do a quick task and return by helicopter......Now, five days later when I was still out, and had not eaten for four days, I wasn't massively surprised. Maybe I just see that I was really a small cog in a big machine, and was easily replaced by an uncaring boss.....That's life though.
I now work for a company that has not given a pay rise in three years, and pays a lower rate than other companies in the same area, but just like you do, I have things very cushy compared to (other engineers in your case) employees in my area who do not have the job security I do. I can leave at any time, and work for whomever I chose.....Just like you can!
Lets also be under NO ILLUSION that your job is held open because of what you work on (not because you are the customers preferred workforce)....the military content has a massive relevance to your job security.....If you had to work on the 'less sensitive' Puma, your job would already be gone!
Do you feel pride in what you do (this is nothing to do with money)?
Do you often meet aircrews who thank you for the job you do?
Do you meet soldiers whose life you may have saved by providing serviceable airframes?
That was an interesting post, and maybe you may need to consider that many other poster here have a good insight into how business actually works in the real world.
Your post could be read in a way that suggests that your employer should actually want to look after you! That is something that is truly laughable to most employees of any flavour, and especially to military ones.
A few things spring to mind for me though. But first I need to state where I'm coming from on this, so you can perhaps understand my viewpoint. Employers, and especially military bosses lie to employees. I was once asked to take a quick helicopter trip, do a twenty minute run, do a quick task and return by helicopter......Now, five days later when I was still out, and had not eaten for four days, I wasn't massively surprised. Maybe I just see that I was really a small cog in a big machine, and was easily replaced by an uncaring boss.....That's life though.
I now work for a company that has not given a pay rise in three years, and pays a lower rate than other companies in the same area, but just like you do, I have things very cushy compared to (other engineers in your case) employees in my area who do not have the job security I do. I can leave at any time, and work for whomever I chose.....Just like you can!
Lets also be under NO ILLUSION that your job is held open because of what you work on (not because you are the customers preferred workforce)....the military content has a massive relevance to your job security.....If you had to work on the 'less sensitive' Puma, your job would already be gone!
Do you feel pride in what you do (this is nothing to do with money)?
Do you often meet aircrews who thank you for the job you do?
Do you meet soldiers whose life you may have saved by providing serviceable airframes?
Barny,
There you go again...just like your predecessors on this thread - ruining what was nearly a good and reasoned argument with a load of crap at the end.
You're mixing some sort of "military pride" with money. As Norty implies - The debate with Moreton-Wynwith is not about the bullsh1t you spout! That's what the soldiers, airmen and fishheads involved in these contracts are for.
In the so-called "PFI" environment of these contracts very few 'workers' deal with end-users and extremely few end-users see the actual work being done (IMHO thats why there are many problems and no real cures)
Mis-management is rife in all these areas - by both sides. But one side are just out to make a buck, which is why they signed the contract in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with making a Buck - but if you want to keep a contract it's also wise to keep your workforce on-side too.
And I suspect that the "fraternal" and "caring" performance of your company's finances is not all the truth you're being told?
There you go again...just like your predecessors on this thread - ruining what was nearly a good and reasoned argument with a load of crap at the end.
You're mixing some sort of "military pride" with money. As Norty implies - The debate with Moreton-Wynwith is not about the bullsh1t you spout! That's what the soldiers, airmen and fishheads involved in these contracts are for.
In the so-called "PFI" environment of these contracts very few 'workers' deal with end-users and extremely few end-users see the actual work being done (IMHO thats why there are many problems and no real cures)
Mis-management is rife in all these areas - by both sides. But one side are just out to make a buck, which is why they signed the contract in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with making a Buck - but if you want to keep a contract it's also wise to keep your workforce on-side too.
And I suspect that the "fraternal" and "caring" performance of your company's finances is not all the truth you're being told?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: at home
Posts: 412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can't say I feel that sympathetic with either side. I sympathise with the guy who has not been paid what was promised( if that is the case). However, the Market will sort this out. If the workers at Wynwith aren't happy then they strike or resign.
On the one hand, I blame the butt munching chisellers who got themselves promoted by suggesting that civvy engineering was a good thing for the military. There go the gate guards etc. In walk the same shirkers who used to work for the military. They all now belong to their own companies and subcontract themselves to Wynwith for tax avoidance purposes. The only difference is that they now don't shave or visit the barber as often as they used to.
It was always going to come to this.......
On the one hand, I blame the butt munching chisellers who got themselves promoted by suggesting that civvy engineering was a good thing for the military. There go the gate guards etc. In walk the same shirkers who used to work for the military. They all now belong to their own companies and subcontract themselves to Wynwith for tax avoidance purposes. The only difference is that they now don't shave or visit the barber as often as they used to.
It was always going to come to this.......
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: bristol
Age: 56
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rigga
When you say:
"There you go again...just like your predecessors on this thread - ruining what was nearly a good and reasoned argument with a load of crap at the end.
You're mixing some sort of "military pride" with money. As Norty implies - The debate with Moreton-Wynwith is not about the bullsh1t you spout! That's what the soldiers, airmen and fishheads involved in these contracts are for."
Actually you are totally wrong there. I was thinking of a firm local to me, where the workers have massive pride in their product as they meet face to face with the servicemen/women who use them (and hear life saving stories). I doubt that many of the late fifties blue rinse mob in this company know much at all about the military, much less served in it
.
They have pride in their product, because they know that they do the best they can (regardless of pay level), and the service personnel they meet confirm this.
From how I read the OP's post, they do not mention an affinity to military values, and so I do not expect them to have them, or to understand them (not that military values are relevant here......But of course personal pride is universal).
Look at my last three questions again please. I feel that the OP feels his bosses are money grabbers collecting one million per on time airframe, while he is left out in the cold with no pay increase as promised (which will hardly give him a warm secure feeling). This may make him not like his bosses, but on the other hand, to have the heartfelt thanks of the end user is worth more than money in my old fashioned way of life (after all the baddies here are not too sociable to downed aircrew/soldiers). At least to have thanks and appreciation from someone is better than no one.
When you say:
"There you go again...just like your predecessors on this thread - ruining what was nearly a good and reasoned argument with a load of crap at the end.
You're mixing some sort of "military pride" with money. As Norty implies - The debate with Moreton-Wynwith is not about the bullsh1t you spout! That's what the soldiers, airmen and fishheads involved in these contracts are for."
Actually you are totally wrong there. I was thinking of a firm local to me, where the workers have massive pride in their product as they meet face to face with the servicemen/women who use them (and hear life saving stories). I doubt that many of the late fifties blue rinse mob in this company know much at all about the military, much less served in it
.They have pride in their product, because they know that they do the best they can (regardless of pay level), and the service personnel they meet confirm this.
From how I read the OP's post, they do not mention an affinity to military values, and so I do not expect them to have them, or to understand them (not that military values are relevant here......But of course personal pride is universal).
Look at my last three questions again please. I feel that the OP feels his bosses are money grabbers collecting one million per on time airframe, while he is left out in the cold with no pay increase as promised (which will hardly give him a warm secure feeling). This may make him not like his bosses, but on the other hand, to have the heartfelt thanks of the end user is worth more than money in my old fashioned way of life (after all the baddies here are not too sociable to downed aircrew/soldiers). At least to have thanks and appreciation from someone is better than no one.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU :
"Either that MoD Plod civilian is carrying firearm or he's very pleased to see us. A sight to be seen at most HM Naval Base Main Gates"
Considering that shot appears to be taken at the entrance to a power station, I rather suspect the two officers are from the Civil Nuclear Police
"Either that MoD Plod civilian is carrying firearm or he's very pleased to see us. A sight to be seen at most HM Naval Base Main Gates"
Considering that shot appears to be taken at the entrance to a power station, I rather suspect the two officers are from the Civil Nuclear Police