Mail: "RAF & RN Pilots In The Cockpit On Your BA Holiday Jet"
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Mail: "RAF & RN Pilots In The Cockpit On Your BA Holiday Jet"
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And here we go again
No real story here......we have always known that the recent pilot redundancies will result in a farce for the MoD. At least we have kept the FRI (as the RN have put their's on hold) as sadly this is exactly where we will be again in a couple of years, more FRIs or scrabbling around to keep our experience from haemorrhaging to the airlines.
Does AMP get it yet-800 BA pilots, 400 ab initios with 400 from RAF/RN and other sources. Let's assume that the not all 400 will come from RAF/RN, but from other airlines providing BA with a ready pool of pilots - the Virgin, Monarch, Easy Jets will soon mop up the remaining RAF/RN aircrews, especially as the recent Air France airspeed blockage/stall is allegedly citing basic aircrew flying experience (rather than over reliance on automation) as a possible contributory factor-making the military training not only more cost effective for the airlines, but also aware that automation comes after many hours of rudimentary flying skills (regularly practiced).
We will always get the young kids through the door, keen as mustard, but however much the MoD attempts to run the RAF like a business it will always be out done by the more dynamic and true strategic HR planning found in the airline industry.
It will be our experience that will suffer, and in comparison to the private sector we are well and truly shooting ourselves in the feet as we erode service life that balance the pure financial incentives offered by the private sector. The 2000 hour plus, QHI/QFI/QWI/QHTI 3rd tour plus, married with working wife, couple of kids, 30-45......these are the ones that will just do a simple cost v life comparison and walk into very open (and increasingly accessible) airline arms.
The airlines managed to absorb the recession and plan for growth in a approximately 2-3 year timeframe. The MoD will be still be trying to sort it's short term, cost driven cutting activities for many years ahead. Hopefully those drawing parallels to the 1930s depression/recession are wrong, as otherwise the way Defence is going we will be in the same as 1936-which wasn't a good place, and this time we will not have the US to come to the rescue as they will be just as screwed as us.
Does AMP get it yet-800 BA pilots, 400 ab initios with 400 from RAF/RN and other sources. Let's assume that the not all 400 will come from RAF/RN, but from other airlines providing BA with a ready pool of pilots - the Virgin, Monarch, Easy Jets will soon mop up the remaining RAF/RN aircrews, especially as the recent Air France airspeed blockage/stall is allegedly citing basic aircrew flying experience (rather than over reliance on automation) as a possible contributory factor-making the military training not only more cost effective for the airlines, but also aware that automation comes after many hours of rudimentary flying skills (regularly practiced).
We will always get the young kids through the door, keen as mustard, but however much the MoD attempts to run the RAF like a business it will always be out done by the more dynamic and true strategic HR planning found in the airline industry.
It will be our experience that will suffer, and in comparison to the private sector we are well and truly shooting ourselves in the feet as we erode service life that balance the pure financial incentives offered by the private sector. The 2000 hour plus, QHI/QFI/QWI/QHTI 3rd tour plus, married with working wife, couple of kids, 30-45......these are the ones that will just do a simple cost v life comparison and walk into very open (and increasingly accessible) airline arms.
The airlines managed to absorb the recession and plan for growth in a approximately 2-3 year timeframe. The MoD will be still be trying to sort it's short term, cost driven cutting activities for many years ahead. Hopefully those drawing parallels to the 1930s depression/recession are wrong, as otherwise the way Defence is going we will be in the same as 1936-which wasn't a good place, and this time we will not have the US to come to the rescue as they will be just as screwed as us.
Last edited by MaroonMan4; 14th Aug 2011 at 06:50.
especially as the recent Air France airspeed blockage/stall is allegedly citing basic aircrew flying experience (rather than over reliance on automation) as a possible contributory factor-making the military training not only more cost effective
Sweeping statements.
I just love the comment that says "it's well known that military pilots make dangerous commercial pilots". Apparently we're all risk takers. Someone's been watching too much Top Gun I think!
Unless I'm wrong and he's right.
BV
Unless I'm wrong and he's right.
BV
Err, one of the pilots was ex-military actually.
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Woo hoo there!
Now steady on....
My point was purely observing that on reading industry publications (e.g. Flight) and attending some of the recent airline recruiting seminars that there appeared to be an active HR strategy to recruit as many ex-mil pilots as possible. There is a reported belief within the airline industry that due to the significant cuts in current and future mil aircrew types that this experienced pool would begin drying up at a time when many 60-65 year old airline pilots would be retiring coincidental with a marked increase in airline growth (especially SE Asia and Middle East).
There is also general comment that the way the military trains it's aircrew has a quality that is potentially cost prohibitive or unrealistic for the civilian sector, but a business model would benefit from a balanced mix of relatively cheap and inexperienced ab initios and more experienced ex military types.
At no stage was I pre-judging any Air France/Airbus inquiry or commenting on the skills/experience of those on the flight deck, and if this the way that this post is construed then I apologise and will remove.
I was purely highlighting that the airline industry is circling the shrinking pool of experienced aircrew with offers of a quality of life and financial remuneration that the MoD has no idea how to deal or compete with.
My point was purely observing that on reading industry publications (e.g. Flight) and attending some of the recent airline recruiting seminars that there appeared to be an active HR strategy to recruit as many ex-mil pilots as possible. There is a reported belief within the airline industry that due to the significant cuts in current and future mil aircrew types that this experienced pool would begin drying up at a time when many 60-65 year old airline pilots would be retiring coincidental with a marked increase in airline growth (especially SE Asia and Middle East).
There is also general comment that the way the military trains it's aircrew has a quality that is potentially cost prohibitive or unrealistic for the civilian sector, but a business model would benefit from a balanced mix of relatively cheap and inexperienced ab initios and more experienced ex military types.
At no stage was I pre-judging any Air France/Airbus inquiry or commenting on the skills/experience of those on the flight deck, and if this the way that this post is construed then I apologise and will remove.
I was purely highlighting that the airline industry is circling the shrinking pool of experienced aircrew with offers of a quality of life and financial remuneration that the MoD has no idea how to deal or compete with.
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Dubois' co-pilots on Flight 447 were David Robert and Pierre-Cedric Bonin.
Robert, 37, joined Air France in 1999 and had 6,600 flight hours with the airline, becoming qualified to fly A330s seven years ago, in April 2002.
Bonin, 32, joined Air France in 2004. He had 3,300 flight hours and had qualified to fly A330s last June.
Robert, 37, joined Air France in 1999 and had 6,600 flight hours with the airline, becoming qualified to fly A330s seven years ago, in April 2002.
Bonin, 32, joined Air France in 2004. He had 3,300 flight hours and had qualified to fly A330s last June.
Which pilot at the controls was ex military? - assuming the above is correct, their ages don't give much room for joining the military and going through flying training before joining the airlines.
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There are some important points here; not least of which is that the airlines are rediscovering the fact that military training brings with it experience that, until recently, has been in short supply in the civilian training world. The advent of Upset Training is the result of hard lessons learnt:
Moreover, several British airlines have realised that it's hard to expand their fleet by just pumping new, low-experienced pilots into the right hand seat and promoting their first officers to captaincy. You can, of course, do that to a certain extent, but overall experience levels drop very quickly if you do. The answer is to buy-in experience and the military is an easy option because they don't compete on pay and conditions at the top end of the scale.
The concept of required upset training has been gaining momentum in the USA, spurred by the February 2009 loss-of-control accident of a Colgan Airways Bombardier Q400 in New York.
Last edited by LFFC; 14th Aug 2011 at 13:37.
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Cadets and QSPs double whammy!
This BA recruitment phase will, I think, be a double Whammy for the MOD. Not only will front-line operators, who have a significant amount of experience, be leaving to join as part of the 400 First Officer slots. But we also have a number of students in the training pipeline who have seen a recent cull amongst their colleagues, and are hearing rumours of what the next phase will entail. They have seen a significant number of those who were cut, being offered Cadetships with Cathay. So with the BA recruitment push with 400 Cadetships on offer, you can't blame the guys for considering their options, and if I was 22 again and part way through an ever restricting training pipeline I know which option I would be taking....!
I spoke a week or two ago with an AMP briefing team member who told me that the increase in PVRs was only a PPRUNE rumour, I was able to quote him the names of 7 colleagues who had PVRd in the past 10 days. However he was having none of it, and this was before the BA announcement. You just couldn't make it up.....
I spoke a week or two ago with an AMP briefing team member who told me that the increase in PVRs was only a PPRUNE rumour, I was able to quote him the names of 7 colleagues who had PVRd in the past 10 days. However he was having none of it, and this was before the BA announcement. You just couldn't make it up.....
I spoke a week or two ago with an AMP briefing team member who told me that the increase in PVRs was only a PPRUNE rumour, I was able to quote him the names of 7 colleagues who had PVRd in the past 10 days. However he was having none of it...
Also ideal for one-sided conversations involving the Axminster Shuffle.....
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As one of the recently 'deselected' studes I know one or two of my colleagues have had phone calls from a few major flag-carrying airline recruitment departments. The future may be bright, but it sure as hell isn't Light Blue any more.
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Just been chatting to the 'Air Mann FgJOs AT AAR' bloke trying to get a firm PVR date and he tried to spin me a story that overall there had not been a lot of PVRs and he also did not see any significant increase since the BA advert.
Something smells fishy to me. The only people to gain out of this are the airlines, yes experienced mil guys will get jobs but the pay has been forced downward in the last few years.
Something smells fishy to me. The only people to gain out of this are the airlines, yes experienced mil guys will get jobs but the pay has been forced downward in the last few years.
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Had a look online tonight at GAI 1028 AL3, couldnt find a later AL.
I might be reading it incorrectly; but it seemed to me that RAFCARS and Managed Path are the same thing.
Also on the Annex used to register it mentions the point at which you exit, it lists PVR as an option?
Does anyone have a copy of a later AL? I looked on the main RAF Intranet, so I imagine this is the latest.
Regards
Ralph
I might be reading it incorrectly; but it seemed to me that RAFCARS and Managed Path are the same thing.
Also on the Annex used to register it mentions the point at which you exit, it lists PVR as an option?
Does anyone have a copy of a later AL? I looked on the main RAF Intranet, so I imagine this is the latest.
Regards
Ralph
Question:
If, as Manning now appear to be saying, there has been no appreciable increase in recent pilot PVR numbers, why has the pilot PVR time just been increased from 6 to 12months?
Answers on a post card to:
RAF Manning
..........
.........
........
If, as Manning now appear to be saying, there has been no appreciable increase in recent pilot PVR numbers, why has the pilot PVR time just been increased from 6 to 12months?
Answers on a post card to:
RAF Manning
..........
.........
........
Why does the age old joke about German ATC abusing a Pilot about having the been here and the "Yes but it was 1944 and I wasn't landing reposte" come to mind when I hear this......
Not met a pilot yet who wanted to take off and not land...............guess that idea never enter Mail journos head.
Not met a pilot yet who wanted to take off and not land...............guess that idea never enter Mail journos head.
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As noted a couple of weeks ago, people are now realising just how important real handling experience is.
Pilots are so reliant on computers they are forgetting how to fly, airline safety group warns.
Pilots are so reliant on computers they are forgetting how to fly, airline safety group warns.
military pilots make dangerous commercial pilots
I made an issue of it and, funny old thing, they both denied and blamed each other.
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Some potential pilots join the military for a short service career in order to get into civil airlines the cheap way.
Last edited by 4Greens; 31st Aug 2011 at 08:09. Reason: innacurate