Do you think this will work?
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Do you think this will work?
Army officers could be parachuted into the highest police ranks as part of a major Government shake-up.
Downing Street is looking at changes that would establish an "officer class" in local forces, according to the Sunday Times.
Senior intelligence personnel, civil servants and lawyers could also be fast-tracked into top positions, while university graduates could be put through a Sandhurst-style college to speed their progress.
A Home Office spokeswoman said: "As the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons this week, we are interested in radical proposals for the future of leadership and training in the police service.
"Tom Winsor, the Government's independent reviewer of police pay and conditions, is considering the issue of entry into the police service and will make recommendations in the second part of his review, due to be published early next year."
Downing Street is looking at changes that would establish an "officer class" in local forces, according to the Sunday Times.
Senior intelligence personnel, civil servants and lawyers could also be fast-tracked into top positions, while university graduates could be put through a Sandhurst-style college to speed their progress.
A Home Office spokeswoman said: "As the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons this week, we are interested in radical proposals for the future of leadership and training in the police service.
"Tom Winsor, the Government's independent reviewer of police pay and conditions, is considering the issue of entry into the police service and will make recommendations in the second part of his review, due to be published early next year."
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
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The best managers always come from the shop floor - they know strengths and weaknesses better than someone draughted in. Having worked for the police this is particularly true.
A thankless task if ever there was
Some guy called Trenchard tried to establish an "officer entry" to the police - did not work, and I guess the Police Federation, if no-one else, would ensure it did not now either.
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One of the reasons given is that "Mr Cameron told MPs: "At the moment, the police system is too closed. There is only one point of entry into the force. There are too few – and arguably too similar – candidates for the top jobs. I want to see radical proposals for how we can open up our police force and bring in fresh leadership."
So bringing in people from the Services as direct-entry mid-ranking officers is quite ironic.
Perhaps they'll make it two-way
Longer article in the Telegraph
So bringing in people from the Services as direct-entry mid-ranking officers is quite ironic.
Perhaps they'll make it two-way
Longer article in the Telegraph
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
There is only one point of entry into the force.
As mentioned before, it was quite usual to have senior officers become chief constables. Today they would be aboe to bring their accute skills to the police using their natural skills at policing in the same way that they have a natural affinity with air power.
What's the difference between someone joining the police as an inspector, having gone through some basic training that will have to be different from your normal PC on the beat, and someone going through officer training at Sandhurst, Dartmouth or Cranwell? Surely they will be reliant upon a good sgt for a while until they find their feet and then they'll be able to operate accordingly?
We used to do it with the Hong Kong police.
We used to do it with the Hong Kong police.
Perhaps they'll make it two-way
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Interesting question and for years the Police have had an accelerated promotion scheme whereby those that are good at rote learning will come to the fore and tick all the right boxes.
The copper that learns their trade on the streets might not be as academically qualified as these folks that seek promotion but are they the better police officers? Leaving a pram outside a shop is obstructing a footpath but common sense would dictate that discretion be used. Discretion however can only come with experience, which in turn can only come about by walking the walk and talking the talk on the streets of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
What are we looking for when we look towards our Chief Constables?
I am getting very concerned at how politicians are having more and more say regarding this issue and we see more and more political interference.
There is a place for our police to maintain law and order at industrial or political demonstrations but we are now regularly seeing the police carrying out the bidding of their political masters for reasons other than 'Good policing'
If they were to recruit ex Military then what would the criteria be and who would do the recruiting? The local Police Authority that always has a political agenda? Would it be the Home Secretary who by definition is a politician?
My thoughts are that promotion should be on merit and why not have a Police Inspector take charge of a section of Royal Marines?? NO... I am NOT saying we should do this as I believe it is both crazy and idiotic. Horses for courses.
Stop the accelerated promotion which allows less experienced officers to very quickly be promoted above their levels of either skills or ability. Go back to good old fashioned policing where there is NO political interference, no outside pressures to produce silly statistics that prove nothing and try to justify everything and let those worthy of promotion, be promoted.
The copper that learns their trade on the streets might not be as academically qualified as these folks that seek promotion but are they the better police officers? Leaving a pram outside a shop is obstructing a footpath but common sense would dictate that discretion be used. Discretion however can only come with experience, which in turn can only come about by walking the walk and talking the talk on the streets of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
What are we looking for when we look towards our Chief Constables?
I am getting very concerned at how politicians are having more and more say regarding this issue and we see more and more political interference.
There is a place for our police to maintain law and order at industrial or political demonstrations but we are now regularly seeing the police carrying out the bidding of their political masters for reasons other than 'Good policing'
If they were to recruit ex Military then what would the criteria be and who would do the recruiting? The local Police Authority that always has a political agenda? Would it be the Home Secretary who by definition is a politician?
My thoughts are that promotion should be on merit and why not have a Police Inspector take charge of a section of Royal Marines?? NO... I am NOT saying we should do this as I believe it is both crazy and idiotic. Horses for courses.
Stop the accelerated promotion which allows less experienced officers to very quickly be promoted above their levels of either skills or ability. Go back to good old fashioned policing where there is NO political interference, no outside pressures to produce silly statistics that prove nothing and try to justify everything and let those worthy of promotion, be promoted.
See from the article the usual - "we are so different" claims - I seem to recall an exchange between the Army and industry some years back at about company commander level - afterwards all involved agreed there were more similarities between skills and experience than differences. I found much the same as a sqn ldr guest student at the Natwest Bank Staff College at Heythrop in the 80s.
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Ex-Forces would probably be better employed by replacing the venal, self-seeking, corrupt politicians currently filling the seats at Westminster. Unlike these latter, all have already had an actual job running something and furthermore, being answerable for their actions.
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What's the difference between someone joining the police as an inspector, having gone through some basic training that will have to be different from your normal PC on the beat, and someone going through officer training at Sandhurst, Dartmouth or Cranwell?
From the various cases of unsolved murders, arresting (often then leading to conviction) the wrong person, fitting up, corruption, receiving bribes, all the way down to the way that petty crime (vandalism, anti social behaviour) is apparently seen as "not my job, mate" by some Forces, this would seem to be a marvellous idea. It isn't. What we need from the Police is effective Law and Order enforcement. That needs lots of experienced and capable Police. With due respect to British Army Officers (or RN or RAF come to that), they are not that (though in time might become so).
The Police are not a military organisation and deal mainly with the public. There is an enormous cultural gap between that and military life, as anyone who has left the military can testify. The Police are not a solution to the problem of redundant military any more than the military were a solution to civvie yobs. Those who wish to pursue a career in the police, or teaching, or any other public service, should be encouraged certainly but not at the cost of being parachuted into posts where their lack of experience and proven ability will further erode standards rather than enhance them.
Finally the effect on morale of seeing one's own promotion prospects screwed up by the sudden appearance of ex military officers above you in the CoC can only be imagined. "Are you a real Inspector, Sir, or only an ex Army officer?".
The Police are not a military organisation and deal mainly with the public. There is an enormous cultural gap between that and military life, as anyone who has left the military can testify. The Police are not a solution to the problem of redundant military any more than the military were a solution to civvie yobs. Those who wish to pursue a career in the police, or teaching, or any other public service, should be encouraged certainly but not at the cost of being parachuted into posts where their lack of experience and proven ability will further erode standards rather than enhance them.
Finally the effect on morale of seeing one's own promotion prospects screwed up by the sudden appearance of ex military officers above you in the CoC can only be imagined. "Are you a real Inspector, Sir, or only an ex Army officer?".
Sorry MG; keep your hair on.
Serious points: Friend of mine, ex Army Sergeant, now Police Inspector. He reckons the qualities that get you through each kind of training are similar, but the nature of the job is significantly different.
I've seen RAF Officers make quite poor yacht skippers.
I became a teacher, got promoted rapidly, but still needed 4 years "on the shop floor" to make the cultural adjustments and figure out how to make the system better.
Given the current conditions/redundancies, I reckon there's a serious risk of getting military officers volunteering for the police to get out of the Services/ keep a job, rather than because they are well suited to being Police Officers.
So I'm not in favour of a general transfer path into middle management. I think a small cadre, say 20, could be tried for about 3 years to find out what the problems/benefits are. But there will always be a need for some "frontline" time.
Serious points: Friend of mine, ex Army Sergeant, now Police Inspector. He reckons the qualities that get you through each kind of training are similar, but the nature of the job is significantly different.
I've seen RAF Officers make quite poor yacht skippers.
I became a teacher, got promoted rapidly, but still needed 4 years "on the shop floor" to make the cultural adjustments and figure out how to make the system better.
Given the current conditions/redundancies, I reckon there's a serious risk of getting military officers volunteering for the police to get out of the Services/ keep a job, rather than because they are well suited to being Police Officers.
So I'm not in favour of a general transfer path into middle management. I think a small cadre, say 20, could be tried for about 3 years to find out what the problems/benefits are. But there will always be a need for some "frontline" time.
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 25th Jul 2011 at 12:08.