B-58 Hustler
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
"pop-up" attacks, coming in at low level at 425 knots (787 km/h) and then climbing abruptly near the target before releasing a nuclear weapon, and the similar "toss bombing" procedure, in which the aircraft released the weapon while climbing, and then rolled away to depart the area before bomb detonation
Aviator Extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That was normal for an over the shoulder toss.
One of the pilots was the sole survivor of a B-47 that exploded in air. He told me he was flying along and the next thing he knew he was badly burned, was descending under his parachute. Even stranger, while the accident team was examining what was left of the aircraft, which was scattered over miles, they found his ejection seat, it had not been used.
He continued his Air Force career ending up flying F-4 in Viet Nam and retired as a full colonel.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: netherlands
Age: 56
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice clips of the B58s
‪B-58 Hustler‬‏ - YouTube
An uncompromised speed machine.
must have been one off the loudest too, 4 J-79s.
‪B-58 Hustler‬‏ - YouTube
An uncompromised speed machine.
must have been one off the loudest too, 4 J-79s.
Only ever seen a Hustler in the flesh at the USAF museum in Dayton. Even at rest she looks about the break the sound, if not the light, barrier. It is pure bomber porn.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York & California
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GreenKnight121
I'm surprised that they didn't realize there was a danger bailing out at altitudes over 50,000 feet with a regular flight-suit (unless they wore pressure suits initially).
Was the B-58 the first USAF aircraft to have an automatic-trim system?
If it's not classified what problem with the flight control system would have aggravated such a situation?
Also, why did the number 3 engine lose power along with number 4?
How did that occur? Did it
1.) Cause the pilot to attempt to climb or dive in order to deal with the erratic airspeed/mach readings
2.) Did it cause the automatic trim, artificial feel systems, to function abnormally causing an loss of control/overcontrol and break-up?
3.) Did it cause an inlet malfunction?
BEagle
I do remember there was a situation where a B-58 did a lightly loaded takeoff followed by a vertical climb and a series of rapid rolls. As I understand it, it totally threw some of the gyros in the navigation system out of alignment requiring them to be reset.
Cunliffe
What you're thinking of is the A-12/YF-12/SR-71. The yaw was caused by an airflow disturbance in the inlet due to either a improperly configured inlet or clear air turbulence. The result is a rapid loss of thrust and an increase in drag which produces a rapid yaw, and with it, a substantial rate of roll too. The inlet system can be controlled manually, but in practice it is done automatically, and the bypass doors open up, and the inlet is moved forward to restart the inlet. The vented air overboard produces additional yaw and drag.
One solution cooked up early on was to have the aircraft automatically boot in opposite rudder, but it worked too good! The pilot sometimes began resetting the wrong inlet and the other kept unstarting until it failed and yaw only increased. Eventually the solution was to have both engines go through the restart cycle simultaneously -- you still got a yaw and roll but it wasn't as bad.
Rossian
Generally they did a 3.5g pull released the bomb on the way up followed by an immelman. It actually did put a heavy strain on the aircraft which reduced service life and they stopped doing it.
When the supersonic B-58 Hustler entered service in 1961, it had individual ejection seats for its three crew members. However, ejection at speeds above 665 mph was extremely hazardous. To improve ejection survivability, the Stanley Aircraft Corp. developed a high-speed high-altitude capsule ejection system that would allow safe ejection at supersonic speed. The capsule was adopted for retrofit beginning in late 1962, making the B-58 the first USAF aircraft with a capsule ejection system. It was effective throughout the flight envelope up to 70,000 feet and twice the speed of sound.
The first accident had taken place on Dec 16, 1958, near Cannon AFB, NM when 58-018 was lost. The accident was attributed to a loss of control during normal flight when autotrim and ratio changer were rendered inoperative due to an electrical system failure.
Although the cause of the accident was never adequately explained, it appears that a design flaw in the aircraft's flight control system and defects in the integrity of the vertical fin structure were to blame. There is also the possibility that when the number 4 engine was purposely shut down for the test, number 3 lost thrust as well.
Also, why did the number 3 engine lose power along with number 4?
On April 22, 1960 a failure of the Mach/airspeed/air data system caused the loss of 58-1023 near Hill AFB, Utah.
1.) Cause the pilot to attempt to climb or dive in order to deal with the erratic airspeed/mach readings
2.) Did it cause the automatic trim, artificial feel systems, to function abnormally causing an loss of control/overcontrol and break-up?
3.) Did it cause an inlet malfunction?
BEagle
I was a Staff Sgt. in the 43rd A&E (Armament & Electronics Maint Sqdn.) and worked on the B-58 Bomb/Navigation system from 1960-1966 at both Carswell AFB Texas and Little Rock AFB Arkansas. I remember some of the incidents that were involved in the crash of A/C 451 during the Paris Air Show of 1961. What you have on your web page may be the official news release of the incident, but it's not the story we got. Maj. M**** was our Maint. Officer with the A&E sqdn. The word we got was that the flight crew was ordered to do a slow roll over the trophy presentation when the A/C went into a fog bank and the attitude indicator in the 1st station was referenced to the bomb/nav system instead of the Auxillary Flight Reference System. The B/N system had mechanical limits that were exeeded when the A/C did the slow roll and with the A/C in a fog bank, the AC lost horizontal reference and the A/C ended up upside down on a farm outside Paris. The Wing Commander, Col. J****** was relieved of command shortly afterward. The A/C were all modified to include a secondary attitude indicator referenced to the Auxillary Flight Reference System at all times to make sure something like that never happened again.
Cunliffe
I seem to remember reading that when violent yaw occured because of an engine fialure an automatic system kicked in opposite rudder to correct it. It was said that the effect on the crew was to smash the helmets on one side of the cockpit as the engine stopped and then on the other side as the rudder applied, all within less than a second.
One solution cooked up early on was to have the aircraft automatically boot in opposite rudder, but it worked too good! The pilot sometimes began resetting the wrong inlet and the other kept unstarting until it failed and yaw only increased. Eventually the solution was to have both engines go through the restart cycle simultaneously -- you still got a yaw and roll but it wasn't as bad.
Rossian
Oh and the B-47 pulling up so hard I was sure the wing tips would clap together. I think he rolled off the top and did a 180.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Northwest-Southwest
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Argonautical -- great clip, thank you for posting.
I believe that would be Holloman AFB, NM, where live firing of ordnance at shows continued into the 1970s, if not later. NAS Pt Mugu, CA, was the other US base where you could see such demonstrations, well into the 1980s.
Jane -- suggest you obtain a copy of Jay Miller's book on the B-58 for all the data you seek.
I believe that would be Holloman AFB, NM, where live firing of ordnance at shows continued into the 1970s, if not later. NAS Pt Mugu, CA, was the other US base where you could see such demonstrations, well into the 1980s.
Jane -- suggest you obtain a copy of Jay Miller's book on the B-58 for all the data you seek.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One solution cooked up early on was to have the aircraft automatically boot in opposite rudder, but it worked too good!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Argonautical -- great clip, thank you for posting.
I have a few pics somewhere of the various flypasts and weapons demonstrations. Pity the Vulcans aren't shown! Three flew past in formation, and as they flew over the desert at a fairly low, (and bumpy) height, two of them briefly brushed wing tips. Apart from some scratched paint and a slight dent in the compass magnetic detector access panel, no damage was done.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Malkin Tower
Posts: 847
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The yaw SAS system comprised three yaw rate gyros, three lateral accelerometers, three computers and two servo channels "
Just what sort of computer technology were they using there?
Presumably some kind of analog vacuum tube device?? This is pre-microprocessor surely?
Just what sort of computer technology were they using there?
Presumably some kind of analog vacuum tube device?? This is pre-microprocessor surely?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: New York & California
Posts: 414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian Abraham
Are you talking about the B-58 or the A-12? I was talking about the A-12 and not really about engine failures but unstarts. I only mentioned an engine failure because it was a possibility if an unstart went uncorrected. Yaw would get worse so even if you had no indicator you'd know!
What kind of directional instability problems did the B-58 have?
R.C.
"That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep), and should I be arrested or framed for a criminal offense, or disappear entirely -- I think we all know who to blame for it"
The aircraft had no "engine failure" recognition system as such.
The yaw SAS system comprised three yaw rate gyros, three lateral accelerometers, three computers and two servo channels (A & B hydraulic systems). The lateral accelerometers provided long term damping and provided corrective inputs to minimise sideslip. SAS authority was limited to approx 8° left and right. Rudder travel is 20° left and right when below Mach 0.5, and limited (by manual handle selection) to 10° L/R when above Mach 0.5.
R.C.
"That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep), and should I be arrested or framed for a criminal offense, or disappear entirely -- I think we all know who to blame for it"
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Talking about the 71 Jane
jamesdevice, the A-12 (precursor to the 71) first flew early 1962 and Honeywell changed the AFICS to DAFICS (Digital Automatic Flight and Inlet Control System) in August 1980, so guess you might be on the money.
Just what sort of computer technology were they using there?
Presumably some kind of analog vacuum tube device?? This is pre-microprocessor surely?
Presumably some kind of analog vacuum tube device?? This is pre-microprocessor surely?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oz
Posts: 644
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A-12s were retired permanently in 1968 and the surviving YF-12 in the late 70s, and both only ever used the AFICS.
The dozen SR-71s equipped with DAFICS had much more stable inlets and weren't anywhere near as prone to unstarts. The inlet doors could be 'fine tuned' in flight by the pilot, but on the occasions when it did happen the system would actually unstart the 'other' engine by pushing the spike back out in order to arrest the yaw.
At cruise the speed would typically drop from ~M3.2 to around 2.8 during an unstart event and the aircraft could lose >10,000ft. The pilot would have to reset the inlets and climb back to speed and altitude. Not fun if over or near contested airspace!
I've been told by a former SR-71 driver that every jet was different and had its own little inlet idiosyncracies, but you generally flew with the same 2 or 3 jets on an operational 'Det' in Japan or the UK and got to know them well.
The dozen SR-71s equipped with DAFICS had much more stable inlets and weren't anywhere near as prone to unstarts. The inlet doors could be 'fine tuned' in flight by the pilot, but on the occasions when it did happen the system would actually unstart the 'other' engine by pushing the spike back out in order to arrest the yaw.
At cruise the speed would typically drop from ~M3.2 to around 2.8 during an unstart event and the aircraft could lose >10,000ft. The pilot would have to reset the inlets and climb back to speed and altitude. Not fun if over or near contested airspace!
I've been told by a former SR-71 driver that every jet was different and had its own little inlet idiosyncracies, but you generally flew with the same 2 or 3 jets on an operational 'Det' in Japan or the UK and got to know them well.
Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 28th Jul 2011 at 07:11.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interested in YF-12A, 12 A and SR-71 Information?
The following rather good web site has flight manuals and some information on the above aircraft.
Link
Jane-Doh, back to your original question re manoeuverability of the B-58 Hustler; it wasn't.
A delta-winged aircraft has a number of disadvantages: it cannot use flaps, and so has a long takeoff run; its low wing loading makes for a rough ride at low altitude, even though the B-58 actually gave quite a good ride at low altitudes. A delta wing aircraft loses speed quickly on turns, limiting manoeuvrability. However, it is a simple, robust configuration that offers high straight-line speed and plenty of volume for fuel tanks.
Link
Jane-Doh, back to your original question re manoeuverability of the B-58 Hustler; it wasn't.
A delta-winged aircraft has a number of disadvantages: it cannot use flaps, and so has a long takeoff run; its low wing loading makes for a rough ride at low altitude, even though the B-58 actually gave quite a good ride at low altitudes. A delta wing aircraft loses speed quickly on turns, limiting manoeuvrability. However, it is a simple, robust configuration that offers high straight-line speed and plenty of volume for fuel tanks.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Popular Science August 1961
Came across this little gem; Popular Science, August 1961. Doesn't say anything new though
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A delta-winged aircraft has a number of disadvantages: it cannot use flaps
It can if it also has a "conventional" tailplane....Like the Javelin.
That's cheating; but true
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B-58 Hustler Incident November 1959
@ Greenknight,
Reference the B-58 incident (airframe 55-664) 25 miles South East of Lawton, Oklahoma on the 7th of November 1959. This was a test of inflight shutdown and restart of the engines at supersonic speed. It has also been said that there may have been carrying out tests on side loads for the fin. I am not sure how true this is.
The test was simulating outboard engine failure at Mach 2. A failure of the Yaw Damper caused the aircraft to yaw at supersonic speed and the shock wave entered No. 4 engine while No. 3 was shut down resulting in a flat spin at supersonic speed causing the aircraft to break apart. A Convair crew was flying the aircraft at the time.
It was determined that a number of factors had contributed to the accident. The official report noted "design deficiency in that the directional restoring moments on the aircraft were not adequate for the test conditions". This was a deficiency in the tail fin structural integrity and a complex aerodynamic phenomenon that involved the aircraft’s large elevons and a small set of control surfaces at the wing root that served as trimming devices. Solutions were quickly put into place, and all B-58s were modified.
Hydraulic Systems
There are two separate and independent hydraulic systems, the utility and the primary, each having two engine-driven pumps maintaining a pressure of 3000 p.s.i. Both systems share in the operation of the flight controls, the elevons and rudders; should one fail the other system assumes the full load; should both hydraulic systems fail, the pilot has no means of controlling the aircraft and the crew must eject. The hydraulic systems also operate the landing gear, nose wheel steering, wheel brakes, tail turret, aileron, elevator and rudder damper servos.
Reference the B-58 incident (airframe 55-664) 25 miles South East of Lawton, Oklahoma on the 7th of November 1959. This was a test of inflight shutdown and restart of the engines at supersonic speed. It has also been said that there may have been carrying out tests on side loads for the fin. I am not sure how true this is.
The test was simulating outboard engine failure at Mach 2. A failure of the Yaw Damper caused the aircraft to yaw at supersonic speed and the shock wave entered No. 4 engine while No. 3 was shut down resulting in a flat spin at supersonic speed causing the aircraft to break apart. A Convair crew was flying the aircraft at the time.
It was determined that a number of factors had contributed to the accident. The official report noted "design deficiency in that the directional restoring moments on the aircraft were not adequate for the test conditions". This was a deficiency in the tail fin structural integrity and a complex aerodynamic phenomenon that involved the aircraft’s large elevons and a small set of control surfaces at the wing root that served as trimming devices. Solutions were quickly put into place, and all B-58s were modified.
Hydraulic Systems
There are two separate and independent hydraulic systems, the utility and the primary, each having two engine-driven pumps maintaining a pressure of 3000 p.s.i. Both systems share in the operation of the flight controls, the elevons and rudders; should one fail the other system assumes the full load; should both hydraulic systems fail, the pilot has no means of controlling the aircraft and the crew must eject. The hydraulic systems also operate the landing gear, nose wheel steering, wheel brakes, tail turret, aileron, elevator and rudder damper servos.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow
Age: 61
Posts: 909
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B-58 Flight Control Systems
A short YouTube clip showing the flight control systems
Why does it insert the YouTube clip twice?