Submarine School. Channel 5
I recall seeing a similar documentry series on the BBC donkies years ago, probably while this lot were just a twinkle in their father's eyes, would be interesting to see if & how much the capabilities & required standards have changed.
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Skipper joined up as a Scribes in 84
Nice one Pictures!!!! and to reply to Heff ....If you fail Perishers you don't go back on Boats - reason being that your career can't go any further if you've failed.
Nice one Pictures!!!! and to reply to Heff ....If you fail Perishers you don't go back on Boats - reason being that your career can't go any further if you've failed.
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So, if you fail Perisher you can't go any further if you stay on 'boats', is it still a blot on your career, is your career affected if you now go to a surface vessel, presumably you still have to pass a surface vessel command course?
What is the major cause of failing Persisher, is it situational awareness, failing to keep a full picture of what is outside and where?
What is the major cause of failing Persisher, is it situational awareness, failing to keep a full picture of what is outside and where?
Some points:
1. the Lt was promoted to Lt Cdr half-way thru the course. Selection for Perisher will always result in being promoted (if not already), and if necessary will become A/Lt Cdr's until the system catches up. Guys who've joined as 18 year olds will have enough practical experience to take PERISHER at 28 or so.
2. The SM Service has a particular ethos, which is a little "in your face", and that is sustained by Teacher. If you don't think it works then you don't know what they've been upto since the introduction of the SM Service.
3. Failure a PERISHER can be as a result of several things, although from what I've been told it's either being too aggressive and loosing the safety bubble or being not aggressive enough and loosing the safety bubble. Although previously failure at PERISHER was an automatic bar from return to the SM Service, there is some serious thought going on to allow a second chance; why waste that experience because of a bad day? If they do get chopped, they typically join the Surface Fleet as PWOs and continue on that line. I've served with 2 Failed Perishers, both of whom have had more drives than the guys who passed on their course; one of whom was promoted well before his SM Contemporaries and is about to get his 1* when they are looking to get their 4th ring.
1. the Lt was promoted to Lt Cdr half-way thru the course. Selection for Perisher will always result in being promoted (if not already), and if necessary will become A/Lt Cdr's until the system catches up. Guys who've joined as 18 year olds will have enough practical experience to take PERISHER at 28 or so.
2. The SM Service has a particular ethos, which is a little "in your face", and that is sustained by Teacher. If you don't think it works then you don't know what they've been upto since the introduction of the SM Service.
3. Failure a PERISHER can be as a result of several things, although from what I've been told it's either being too aggressive and loosing the safety bubble or being not aggressive enough and loosing the safety bubble. Although previously failure at PERISHER was an automatic bar from return to the SM Service, there is some serious thought going on to allow a second chance; why waste that experience because of a bad day? If they do get chopped, they typically join the Surface Fleet as PWOs and continue on that line. I've served with 2 Failed Perishers, both of whom have had more drives than the guys who passed on their course; one of whom was promoted well before his SM Contemporaries and is about to get his 1* when they are looking to get their 4th ring.
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Difficult to understand why the RN would permit cameras in such a stressful situation. A good selection process and training would ensure a lower attrition rate, but then perhaps it wouldn't be "in your face".
Germanic ASDIC operator on a surface target muttered the perennial phrase involving needles and haystacks. Nothing changes (unless it was a bluff!)
Germanic ASDIC operator on a surface target muttered the perennial phrase involving needles and haystacks. Nothing changes (unless it was a bluff!)
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Submarine School
Gentlemen,
Please allow me to have a few words.
These days we only have 4 V boats / 6 T Boats and one A boat with more to come.
In the days of the Diesel boats.... the perk of passing Perisher WAS Command of your own diesel boat. These days however we only have Nuclear Powered submarines and all of these have a CO and XO who have both passed Perisher:
Commanding Officer: Who is a Commander (Royal Navy) who has already completed an appointment as XO
Executive Officer: Who is a Lieutenant Commander (Royal Navy) - invariably relatively new of course (Perisher).
And as to the silver/blanked out ranks epaulets etc was a means to simulate Special Forces (ie Ships Company pretending to be Special Forces) for the purposes of practicing the techniques BEFORE the real thing.
I have read many forum accounts these past 7 days - some none to complimentary about what they perceive to be the 'Cream of the Royal Navy'. I cannot attempt to portray in an email what it was really like to be on Perisher... a great deal of the pressure was self imposed but I can say that I am immensely proud to have had the opportunity to do the course and of course pass it. I do not pretend that the hard work is done - indeed the the hard work lies ahead as I form part of the team that regenerates a Submarine out of REFIT/Maintenance period. What I would say however, is that anyone with even an minute element of knowledge of the Submarine service WILL view the TV program with critical eyes... but dont forget that it is aimed at the everyday man who is somewhat blind to what we as Submariners do for a living... In those terms alone I think the Production Team have done a relatively good job...
The production team have the sequence slightly wrong.
We went to sea 20 Sep 10.
I started course as a Lieutenant but was promoted 1 Oct 10. This would have happened regardless of the outcome of Perisher. I was selected for promotion as early as February 10.
Part of the 'fear' / 'esteem' of Perisher is that it is a one shot / make or break course... It is ruthless and is designed to be so... is it correct? Well you will have your own opinions but all those who undertake Perisher know the rules, the rewards and the perils. Statistically we have endured a 50% pass (or fail if your cup is half empty) rate in recent years (10 years). This has rarely delivered the numbers required... so have things or standards dropped? I would suggest not.
I would invite anyone who thinks that Perisher is easy or that any one of us were 'duffers' to revisit their comments. As for comparing Perisher students to 'The Apprentice' I quite frankly find insulting.
The exposure of Perisher to the Cameras I think with hindsight was a good move. Every effort was made from a very early stage to integrate the Camera / Production teams into submarine routines and indeed forge a good relationship with the students. Filming commences 6 weeks prior to going to sea with the aim of us getting used to them... Did we feel under more pressure because of the Cameras? Whilst I cannot speak for all of us - but it is not something we discussed at length or were overly concerned about.
I am exceptionally proud to call myself a Submariner, a member of an exclusive club that pans international borders and is second to none in 'esprit de corps'.
Dolphin 32!
Submarine Jeff
Please allow me to have a few words.
These days we only have 4 V boats / 6 T Boats and one A boat with more to come.
In the days of the Diesel boats.... the perk of passing Perisher WAS Command of your own diesel boat. These days however we only have Nuclear Powered submarines and all of these have a CO and XO who have both passed Perisher:
Commanding Officer: Who is a Commander (Royal Navy) who has already completed an appointment as XO
Executive Officer: Who is a Lieutenant Commander (Royal Navy) - invariably relatively new of course (Perisher).
And as to the silver/blanked out ranks epaulets etc was a means to simulate Special Forces (ie Ships Company pretending to be Special Forces) for the purposes of practicing the techniques BEFORE the real thing.
I have read many forum accounts these past 7 days - some none to complimentary about what they perceive to be the 'Cream of the Royal Navy'. I cannot attempt to portray in an email what it was really like to be on Perisher... a great deal of the pressure was self imposed but I can say that I am immensely proud to have had the opportunity to do the course and of course pass it. I do not pretend that the hard work is done - indeed the the hard work lies ahead as I form part of the team that regenerates a Submarine out of REFIT/Maintenance period. What I would say however, is that anyone with even an minute element of knowledge of the Submarine service WILL view the TV program with critical eyes... but dont forget that it is aimed at the everyday man who is somewhat blind to what we as Submariners do for a living... In those terms alone I think the Production Team have done a relatively good job...
The production team have the sequence slightly wrong.
We went to sea 20 Sep 10.
I started course as a Lieutenant but was promoted 1 Oct 10. This would have happened regardless of the outcome of Perisher. I was selected for promotion as early as February 10.
Part of the 'fear' / 'esteem' of Perisher is that it is a one shot / make or break course... It is ruthless and is designed to be so... is it correct? Well you will have your own opinions but all those who undertake Perisher know the rules, the rewards and the perils. Statistically we have endured a 50% pass (or fail if your cup is half empty) rate in recent years (10 years). This has rarely delivered the numbers required... so have things or standards dropped? I would suggest not.
I would invite anyone who thinks that Perisher is easy or that any one of us were 'duffers' to revisit their comments. As for comparing Perisher students to 'The Apprentice' I quite frankly find insulting.
The exposure of Perisher to the Cameras I think with hindsight was a good move. Every effort was made from a very early stage to integrate the Camera / Production teams into submarine routines and indeed forge a good relationship with the students. Filming commences 6 weeks prior to going to sea with the aim of us getting used to them... Did we feel under more pressure because of the Cameras? Whilst I cannot speak for all of us - but it is not something we discussed at length or were overly concerned about.
I am exceptionally proud to call myself a Submariner, a member of an exclusive club that pans international borders and is second to none in 'esprit de corps'.
Dolphin 32!
Submarine Jeff
Thank you Submarine Jeff for your sober amd measured comments about the Perisher.
Of course, in 4 hours of heavily edited TV we only see a snapshot of the truth but I would return to the Lists with the following comments.
First, if it's 50% pass; that's not good 'economics' and if you then expell the failures from the submarine service, one is losing that experience undersea, although possibly gaining a great deal if the person becomes a PWO in an anti-sub vessel.
Second, I took a professional dislike to the four ringer, whose late intervention (inteferring with 'Teacher's' work I suspect) was unhelpful. This after the broadcast comments of Teacher about when he would intervene. The rear admiral seemed rather more measured. It would be interesting to know if the presence of the 4* admiral was as some sort of final assessment board.
Third, I thought the real star of the last two episodes was the officer of the watch (Lt Dennis Fox). He appeared to be calm and mature and is (possibly) an ex-ranker and clearly the master of his game.
Finally, I stand by my earlier post. My perception of the first pair of programmes was of people who seemed - at times - completely at a loss as to how to lead and encourage their team. After all these are experienced officers who are at the end of their course which has led to these final trials (in more sense than one).
An interesting series and thanks again SJ for putting us straight.
Old Duffer
Of course, in 4 hours of heavily edited TV we only see a snapshot of the truth but I would return to the Lists with the following comments.
First, if it's 50% pass; that's not good 'economics' and if you then expell the failures from the submarine service, one is losing that experience undersea, although possibly gaining a great deal if the person becomes a PWO in an anti-sub vessel.
Second, I took a professional dislike to the four ringer, whose late intervention (inteferring with 'Teacher's' work I suspect) was unhelpful. This after the broadcast comments of Teacher about when he would intervene. The rear admiral seemed rather more measured. It would be interesting to know if the presence of the 4* admiral was as some sort of final assessment board.
Third, I thought the real star of the last two episodes was the officer of the watch (Lt Dennis Fox). He appeared to be calm and mature and is (possibly) an ex-ranker and clearly the master of his game.
Finally, I stand by my earlier post. My perception of the first pair of programmes was of people who seemed - at times - completely at a loss as to how to lead and encourage their team. After all these are experienced officers who are at the end of their course which has led to these final trials (in more sense than one).
An interesting series and thanks again SJ for putting us straight.
Old Duffer
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anyone who wet shaves and then washes his arm pits with the same water is welcome to be on that boat by himself!
As someone pointed out, the 50% of people who fail "Perisher" have very good skills for anti-submarine work afterwards. My father's CO on the North Atlantic was a Perisher failure who became very adept at anti-submarine work, with three U-boats to his credit (with a bit of help from his crew and the other ships in his group of course).
As a mere Crab, and long retired at that, within the limitations of what the RN wanted from the programme and the producers wanted, it was a pretty good series. Congratulations to those who passed "Perisher", it would have been a challenging enough course as it was, with the added pressure of the TV crews, it must have been really stressful. But well done all, and a grudging "congratulations" to the programme makers, who managed to avoid making service people look like anything between numpties and Attilla the Hun.
Last edited by Wander00; 30th Jun 2011 at 15:58.
Perhaps the ruthless nature of the Perisher can be summed up in one instance.
In 1942, Lt Peter Roberts and PO Tom Gould of HM Submarine Thrasher was each awarded the VC for disposing of a bomb which had lodged beneath the gratings on their submarine casing. This was danagerous of itself but if the sub had been forced to submerge in a hurry they would have been trapped.
Peter Roberts was sent on his Perisher and his VC was announced during the course. The following day he failed the course and was taken off submarines for good. No concessions, no second chances, no extra coaching - endex!
Roberts was also awarded a DSC and in later life served in the RNXS in (I think) Plymouth working the support vessels used by the navy in and around harbours etc. He died in about 1979 when only early '60s.
Old Duffer
In 1942, Lt Peter Roberts and PO Tom Gould of HM Submarine Thrasher was each awarded the VC for disposing of a bomb which had lodged beneath the gratings on their submarine casing. This was danagerous of itself but if the sub had been forced to submerge in a hurry they would have been trapped.
Peter Roberts was sent on his Perisher and his VC was announced during the course. The following day he failed the course and was taken off submarines for good. No concessions, no second chances, no extra coaching - endex!
Roberts was also awarded a DSC and in later life served in the RNXS in (I think) Plymouth working the support vessels used by the navy in and around harbours etc. He died in about 1979 when only early '60s.
Old Duffer
I took a professional dislike to the four ringer
S'funny there was absolutely no mention of HMS Astute's little mishap off Skye around the time this programme was being made..
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As ever, the RN have a PR team that come up with a plan that shows Joe Public that their sailors are only human - who come good in the end. Well done the Andrew!
Duncs
Still think a Nimrod would have had them under an awful lot more pressure!
Duncs
Still think a Nimrod would have had them under an awful lot more pressure!
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I prefer to believe that (potential) commanders of submarines are calm and collected, albeit curt and distant. Any sign of panic or stress is a weakness, although that wouldn't be good television. But then I'm still surprised to see clean shaven submariners who didn't stink of diesel.
With modern weapons, were not firing solutions achieved but not exploited?
I didn't know Denmark possessed ASW vessels, so that's something learnt.
With modern weapons, were not firing solutions achieved but not exploited?
I didn't know Denmark possessed ASW vessels, so that's something learnt.
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With modern weapons, were not firing solutions achieved but not exploited?
Very little of what actually goes on was shown. A casual viewer would get the impression that these encounters take a few minutes and that operating at PD in calm inshore waters is the norm. And that putting a weapon in the water involves pushing a button and that's it done and dusted.
By the standards of recent documentary series on the RN I thought it was a huge improvement.