Carrier Aviation = Cheapest
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midlands
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That would also have been the point at which a sea deployment would have been authorised
On 19 March
US and British naval vessels fired at least 114 Tomahawk cruise missiles at twenty Libyan integrated air and ground defense systems.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: uk
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just,
Sailing a submarine out there quietly under water is one thing; sailing the fleet from harbour is quite another. Political choice and the ability to deny, delay or de-escalate is key. Even if the Ark had been here it would not have been ready or able. Ocean only managed because it was on a pre-planned exercise - lucky guess?
Lj101 - 4 hours from the PM deciding to act, not the passing of the UN resolution.
Sailing a submarine out there quietly under water is one thing; sailing the fleet from harbour is quite another. Political choice and the ability to deny, delay or de-escalate is key. Even if the Ark had been here it would not have been ready or able. Ocean only managed because it was on a pre-planned exercise - lucky guess?
Lj101 - 4 hours from the PM deciding to act, not the passing of the UN resolution.
Ever heard of indicators and warnings?
Events in Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan and Egypt kicked off the Arab Spring in late Jan/early Feb and looked like spreading. HMG should have started contingency planning and considered deploying RN assets, including a carrier had one been available. I suggested it in other forums at the time. Earmarked ships and submarines could have stored, sailed and been 'acclimatising' in the Med by mid to late Feb, picking up anything else necessary at Gib or Malta en route.
The PM proposed his No Fly Zone in the House of Commons on 28 Feb (link). UNSCR 1973 wasn't passed until 17 Mar (link). RN assets would already have been in precisely the right place (as was HMS Triumph) to acquire situational awareness and act with maximum effect for NEO or whatever else necessary. Had nothing transpired, RN units could simply have melted away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East while continuing to provide valuable intelligence.
Events in Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan and Egypt kicked off the Arab Spring in late Jan/early Feb and looked like spreading. HMG should have started contingency planning and considered deploying RN assets, including a carrier had one been available. I suggested it in other forums at the time. Earmarked ships and submarines could have stored, sailed and been 'acclimatising' in the Med by mid to late Feb, picking up anything else necessary at Gib or Malta en route.
The PM proposed his No Fly Zone in the House of Commons on 28 Feb (link). UNSCR 1973 wasn't passed until 17 Mar (link). RN assets would already have been in precisely the right place (as was HMS Triumph) to acquire situational awareness and act with maximum effect for NEO or whatever else necessary. Had nothing transpired, RN units could simply have melted away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East while continuing to provide valuable intelligence.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tullahoma TN
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Events in Tunisia, Yemen, Jordan and Egypt kicked off the Arab Spring in late Jan/early Feb and looked like spreading. HMG should have started contingency planning and considered deploying RN assets, including a carrier had one been available.
Contingency planning to do what? Bomb all those places at the same time?
If evil dictators surrender when there's a carrier offshore, why is Kadaffy holding out? The CdG is on the scene, isn't it?
... Earmarked ships and submarines could have stored, sailed and been 'acclimatising' in the Med by mid to late Feb, picking up anything else necessary at Gib or Malta en route.
All the last-minute needs beiing cleverly pre-positioned there. Uh-huh.
... RN assets would already have been in precisely the right place (as was HMS Triumph) to acquire situational awareness and act with maximum effect for NEO or whatever else necessary. [/I}
What maximum effects could RN ships such as Triumph provide? 4.5 inch guns?
Had nothing transpired, RN units could simply have melted away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East while continuing to provide valuable intelligence.
What's transpiring now is that units of the RN as well as the Charlie dG. have been bombarding Libya for weeks now, and Kadaffy Duck is still holding out, and thiose other Muslim countries are still going to Hell..
So much for awesome, fearsome naval power.
"Melting away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East while continuing to provide valuable intelligence."
If a lucky bomb doesn't get Kadaffy this summer, I expect that political support for the British and French kampf nach Libya ( "nach" -- is that the wrong preposition? ) to melt away, all right. They'll put out some weak cover story like that: "Melting away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East ..."
Contingency planning to do what? Bomb all those places at the same time?
If evil dictators surrender when there's a carrier offshore, why is Kadaffy holding out? The CdG is on the scene, isn't it?
... Earmarked ships and submarines could have stored, sailed and been 'acclimatising' in the Med by mid to late Feb, picking up anything else necessary at Gib or Malta en route.
All the last-minute needs beiing cleverly pre-positioned there. Uh-huh.
... RN assets would already have been in precisely the right place (as was HMS Triumph) to acquire situational awareness and act with maximum effect for NEO or whatever else necessary. [/I}
What maximum effects could RN ships such as Triumph provide? 4.5 inch guns?
Had nothing transpired, RN units could simply have melted away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East while continuing to provide valuable intelligence.
What's transpiring now is that units of the RN as well as the Charlie dG. have been bombarding Libya for weeks now, and Kadaffy Duck is still holding out, and thiose other Muslim countries are still going to Hell..
So much for awesome, fearsome naval power.
"Melting away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East while continuing to provide valuable intelligence."
If a lucky bomb doesn't get Kadaffy this summer, I expect that political support for the British and French kampf nach Libya ( "nach" -- is that the wrong preposition? ) to melt away, all right. They'll put out some weak cover story like that: "Melting away to continue monitoring events in North Africa/the Middle East ..."
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Tullahoma TN
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FACT 2 - a carrier is probably one of the best ways to project influence and statemetns about military intent in coastal areas.
American aircraft carrier fans have been saying junk such as that for sixty years or more.
"Put some of our big carriers offshore! That'll show that tinpot dictator we mean business!"
But it never works. The tinpot dictators are unimpressed, even the smallest, dinky-est little dumps such as Panama or Grenada.
To get the bad boss, tinpot or otherwise, out of power, the USA always ends up having to people on the ground in country in sufficient strength.
... I guess it's ancient history now, but the USAF and USN carrier aviation had been bombing Iraq for years and years before 2003. The bombing didn't make the late Saddam H. retire.
American aircraft carrier fans have been saying junk such as that for sixty years or more.
"Put some of our big carriers offshore! That'll show that tinpot dictator we mean business!"
But it never works. The tinpot dictators are unimpressed, even the smallest, dinky-est little dumps such as Panama or Grenada.
To get the bad boss, tinpot or otherwise, out of power, the USA always ends up having to people on the ground in country in sufficient strength.
... I guess it's ancient history now, but the USAF and USN carrier aviation had been bombing Iraq for years and years before 2003. The bombing didn't make the late Saddam H. retire.
Originally Posted by Capt P U G Wash
Originally Posted by FODPlod
... RN assets would already have been in precisely the right place (as was HMS Triumph) to acquire situational awareness and act with maximum effect for NEO or whatever else necessary.
Originally Posted by Wikipedia article about HMS Triumph
In March 2011, she participated in Operation Ellamy, firing Tomahawk cruise missiles on 19 March, 20 March and again on 24 March at Libyan air defence targets. Triumph returned to Devonport on 3 April 2011 flying a Jolly Roger adorned with six small Tomahawk axes to indicate the missiles fired by the submarine in the operation.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chilling out on the water if it's warm enough
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How many?
Originally Posted by Wikipedia article about HMS Triumph
In March 2011, she participated in Operation Ellamy, firing Tomahawk cruise missiles on 19 March, 20 March and again on 24 March at Libyan air defence targets. Triumph returned to Devonport on 3 April 2011 flying a Jolly Roger adorned with six small Tomahawk axes to indicate the missiles fired by the submarine in the operation.
In March 2011, she participated in Operation Ellamy, firing Tomahawk cruise missiles on 19 March, 20 March and again on 24 March at Libyan air defence targets. Triumph returned to Devonport on 3 April 2011 flying a Jolly Roger adorned with six small Tomahawk axes to indicate the missiles fired by the submarine in the operation.
Triumph has fired several more TLAMs since then.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Chilling out on the water if it's warm enough
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tornado fired more than the 114 TLAM, amazing
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Oxon
Age: 66
Posts: 1,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
I cannot wait for the dark blue spin on that one
So, correct me if im wrong but what you're saying is, Triumph shot 6 over 6 days and then took a week or so to return to Plymouth to reload?
As any well-informed poster would know, Trafalgar could have reloaded at any NATO naval base in the Med. She returned to Plymouth for maintenance and leave after completing her deployment which would mainly have involved stooging off the Libyan coast monitoring shipping activity and gathering INT. She probably had TLAMs to spare but only launched what was ordered. Trafalgar Class SSNs can carry up to 30 TLAMs/torpedoes while the new Astute Class can carry up to 38.
Don't smirk too much. Unlike some forces personnel who spend 16 months out of 20 sitting at their base in the UK (see RAF Harmony Guidelines below) and deploy to places like RAF Club Med in Italy, RN submariners (and other Naval Service personnel (RN including FAA & RM)) deploy on operations for much longer. Indeed, one submarine only recently returned from over 10 months (307 days to be precise) away from home (MoD website link):
Service Harmony Guidelines comprise:
- Royal Navy and Royal Marines – 60 per cent deployed and 40 per cent at base in a 3-year cycle with no more than 660 days away from home over a rolling 3-year period
- Army – 6 months on operations in every 30-month period with separated service no more than 415 days away over a rolling 30-month period.
- RAF – 4 months on operations in a 20-month period with separated service no more than 280 days over a rolling 24-month period.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But it never works. The tinpot dictators are unimpressed, even the smallest, dinky-est little dumps such as Panama or Grenada.
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Midlands
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you reread PUG's post, he compared the UK contribution (which appears to be 6?) not the overall coalition effort.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Belgium
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FOD, brilliant!!
So the sub could have fired more but chose not to, bit beneath them probably, not proper work for the RN.
And what you are saying is that RAF and Army harmony are pretty much the same (1 in 5), also bearing in mind that there aren't many 4 month tours left, most are 6.
The RN delightedly pointing to their harmony guidelines and how tough they get it is equally as good. I naturally assumed that you join the RN to go to sea? Complaining that you do it too much is a bit like the RAF complaining that they are being asked to fly too often.
Also should add (from a post further up) that suggesting that arty can cover the ground attack role was clearly written by someone with no experience of either or a member of the RA! Spraying high explosive around a large area of countryside isn't really what it is about at the moment (and yes I have seen it many times in Afg and yes there is a time and place for arty but it is no way a substitute for Air).
So the sub could have fired more but chose not to, bit beneath them probably, not proper work for the RN.
And what you are saying is that RAF and Army harmony are pretty much the same (1 in 5), also bearing in mind that there aren't many 4 month tours left, most are 6.
The RN delightedly pointing to their harmony guidelines and how tough they get it is equally as good. I naturally assumed that you join the RN to go to sea? Complaining that you do it too much is a bit like the RAF complaining that they are being asked to fly too often.
Also should add (from a post further up) that suggesting that arty can cover the ground attack role was clearly written by someone with no experience of either or a member of the RA! Spraying high explosive around a large area of countryside isn't really what it is about at the moment (and yes I have seen it many times in Afg and yes there is a time and place for arty but it is no way a substitute for Air).
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
FODPlod - Aren't those of the submarine service compensated for the task which they choose to do?
Everyone has choices, its not as if time spent away from home is a new thing for those in the Silent Service.
Everyone has choices, its not as if time spent away from home is a new thing for those in the Silent Service.
The RN delightedly pointing to their harmony guidelines and how tough they get it is equally as good. I naturally assumed that you join the RN to go to sea? Complaining that you do it too much is a bit like the RAF complaining that they are being asked to fly too often.
Personnel costs make up just over a third (37.5%) of the Defence budget (link). In the context of this thread, the Harmony Guidelines mean that RN personnel (including aircrew and support staff) are demonstrably more productive (and therefore more cost-effective) than RAF personnel because they are able to spend so much more of their time deployed away from base. QED
