Charles de Gaulle off Libya
Important point made about relearning Carrier Ops....unless it is the F-35VTOL the RN puts into service. The British "learning" from the French....now that is concept worth thinking about!
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The French wont be using steam when we sell them two being built in Rosyth to be called Napolean and Sarkosy
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2. They will have greater lessons to learn if they go fixed wing; the last fixed wing was 42 years ago (I think).
Care to make a Gentleman's wager the RN goes it alone and tries to pick up where it left off all those years ago rather than embrace training with the US Navy as the French have done?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SASLess, there are always two ways of doing things. Why do you think we would change the habits of a lifetime?
1. They will still need to relearn carrier ops if they get the F35 VTOL.
2. They will have greater lessons to learn if they go fixed wing; the last fixed wing was 42 years ago (I think). [/I]
Err, the last fixed-wing launch from Ark Royal was less than 12 months ago.......
2. They will have greater lessons to learn if they go fixed wing; the last fixed wing was 42 years ago (I think). [/I]
Err, the last fixed-wing launch from Ark Royal was less than 12 months ago.......
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I don't see the relevance of the final launches from either Ark Royal (IV) 27th november 1978 or from Ark Royal (V) December 2010, the important facts to remember are that FAA FJ pilots are training in CATOBAR ops with the USN NOW, and they will continue to do so leading up to QE's service entry. It's not about wil they or won't they, we already are, and the necessary bank of experience will be in place by the time it is needed.
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FAA FJ pilots are training in CATOBAR ops with the USN NOW,
Seriously, it's good to hear that there is some planning for the future.
I am here. I have been mostly here: Decision to axe Harrier is "bonkers".
Indeed I posted the report from Charles De Gaulle there.
Since Time = Distance/Speed, an aircraft based aboard a carrier that can get close to the shore will always provide a faster response than a land based one based 500+ nautical miles away, regardless of "leg size". You cannot argue with basic Maths.
With regard to the skills issue, I would suggest looking at the following posts from the above mentioned thread (they also contain suggestions):
This from page 36:
Stanhope said the Royal Navy is faced with the task of regenerating the carrier force in the latter half of the decade as a new aircraft carrier and the F-35C fighter become available. Rebuilding an aircraft carrier force around 2019 could only be done with the assistance of allied carrier operators France and the U.S., he said. Such a program is now being developed, Stanhope said.
I also think we need to consider the basics that we risk losing. To qoute myself:
I would suggest that basics are basics, regardless of whether the future is V/STOL or involves "Cats and traps". Will there be exchanges for lots of chockheads - moving live jets on deck 24 hours a day in all weather in rough sea states, the people who fuel, arm and work on aircraft on deck - amongst jet blast (and FOD issues) the OOW and bridge team - who have to put the ship in the right place, direction and speed for aircraft to take off or land, Ops Room personnel - who have to operate sensors/weapons and talk to aircraft, maintainers of this equipment, landing aids maintainers, the ME watchkeepers keeping a nice level deck and increasing speed when needed, ATC types, Fighter Controllers, senior Officers in the carrier (Cdr(Air), Lt Cdr(Flying), Captain, XO) - they need to know how to run things, senior Officers elsewhere (MOD, Navy Command, task group commanders) who need to know how aircraft are used as task group weapons, etc?
This from page 35 and this from page 34:
If the Royal Navy has no capacity to operate fixed wing aircraft at sea for a decade, then all the skills that are needed will be lost. It is generally reckoned that building these skills up from being non existent to the level we currently have would take approximately ten years – maybe longer. Of course, the pilots can be sent to work with the US Navy or someone else, to build up experience of carrier operations. However, operating fixed wing aircraft (and helicopters to a certain extent) is a whole ship activity. It does not only involve the aircrew and flight deck personnel, but virtually everyone. There is no way we can send hundreds of sailors to work in American carriers, and most of these specialist skills need to be maintained by constant practice. Many are carrier specific.
On the flight deck, aircraft handlers need to be able to speedily and safely move aircraft around the flight deck, both by giving visual cues to pilots and by using vehicles. They also need to be able to deal with any fires or other incidents that might occur. The RN School of Flight Deck Operations at RNAS Culdrose has a dummy deck, dubbed HMS Siskin, where aircraft handlers learn their trade. Real aircraft, including a number of retired Sea Harriers, are used and move under their own power to simulate a carrier deck. However, they cannot simulate the movement of a ship at sea in variable sea conditions, pitching and rolling. Nor can they simulate things such the carrier increasing speed to launch aircraft and the sudden wind over the deck. Getting experience of these things and building experience and confidence requires people to spend time at sea working with aircraft for real. This is a key skill area that will decline very rapidly if we have no flying from carriers.
Other personnel may also need to work on the flight deck, amongst the aircraft. These include the people who maintain the aircraft, and those who fuel and arm them. They too need experience of doing it for real.
Beyond the flight deck, lots of other personnel in different parts of the ship are involved. These include the Navigating Officer and the Officer of the Watch and his/her team on the bridge, who must ensure that the ship is on the right heading for flying operations. The Commander (Air) and his team are responsible for running aviation activities. The marine engineering watchkeepers in the Ship Control Centre are responsible for increasing the speed of the carrier’s engines when needed for launching aircraft, they also carry out adjustments to things such as the ship’s trim, so as to maintain a level deck for flying. There are various sensors, communications systems and landing aids that need to be maintained and operated. All of these are things that demand time spent practising at sea.
Air Traffic Control is of critical importance, as are others who are involved in airspace management. A carrier is unlike any airfield in that she moves. Land based ATC cannot provide the same experience. Her command team must also consider the constraints put on her movements by the maritime environment, by her escorts, and by the need to be aware of the existence of things such as merchant shipping or fishing boats. The aircrew that fly from the deck also need to have an understanding of all these issues. They must also understand how they fit in with the rest of the ship and task group. Finally, no carrier operations mean that in ten years time, there will be no senior naval officers with experience or understanding of these complex issues.
Most of these things cannot be taught on a dummy deck, or in a simulator, but need developing by real flying aboard real decks. The RN has been doing this for many decades, and the experience and expertise, much of it won at great cost, handed down. It seems unlikely that the body of experience would survive a ten year gap of non use. Interestingly, young officers entering the training pipeline to become pilots or observers have been told that to go from scratch to the level of expertise we currently have would take ten years – this is based on the experience of others Navies like those of Spain and Italy who have gained carriers more recently than us.
Some of my comments here are based on what I was fortunate to witness aboard HMS Illustrious in late 2007. Although I had a pretty good idea of what to expect, the number of different parts of ship involved in maintaining safe and effective flying operations took me by surprise. The teamwork was impressive. If a mere [me - a Reservist junior rate] can see this, why does the review turn a blind eye? Whilst in the dinner queue one evening I looked in a magazine I found loafing, there was an article in which a senior aviator (ex Sea Harrier) commented on the danger of future Fleet Air Arm personnel becoming unfamiliar with the shipboard environment and deck operations. My path has crossed with aviation connected personnel at other times, and they have all expressed similar views.
Edit: In reply to MrDave (below) the Argentines do indeed embark their Super Eterndards aboard US and Brazilian carriers when they can, and I didn't know about the personnel exchanges, but could they operate a carrier if they suddenly acquired one? I suspect not.
Indeed I posted the report from Charles De Gaulle there.
Since Time = Distance/Speed, an aircraft based aboard a carrier that can get close to the shore will always provide a faster response than a land based one based 500+ nautical miles away, regardless of "leg size". You cannot argue with basic Maths.
With regard to the skills issue, I would suggest looking at the following posts from the above mentioned thread (they also contain suggestions):
This from page 36:
Stanhope said the Royal Navy is faced with the task of regenerating the carrier force in the latter half of the decade as a new aircraft carrier and the F-35C fighter become available. Rebuilding an aircraft carrier force around 2019 could only be done with the assistance of allied carrier operators France and the U.S., he said. Such a program is now being developed, Stanhope said.
I also think we need to consider the basics that we risk losing. To qoute myself:
I would suggest that basics are basics, regardless of whether the future is V/STOL or involves "Cats and traps". Will there be exchanges for lots of chockheads - moving live jets on deck 24 hours a day in all weather in rough sea states, the people who fuel, arm and work on aircraft on deck - amongst jet blast (and FOD issues) the OOW and bridge team - who have to put the ship in the right place, direction and speed for aircraft to take off or land, Ops Room personnel - who have to operate sensors/weapons and talk to aircraft, maintainers of this equipment, landing aids maintainers, the ME watchkeepers keeping a nice level deck and increasing speed when needed, ATC types, Fighter Controllers, senior Officers in the carrier (Cdr(Air), Lt Cdr(Flying), Captain, XO) - they need to know how to run things, senior Officers elsewhere (MOD, Navy Command, task group commanders) who need to know how aircraft are used as task group weapons, etc?
This from page 35 and this from page 34:
If the Royal Navy has no capacity to operate fixed wing aircraft at sea for a decade, then all the skills that are needed will be lost. It is generally reckoned that building these skills up from being non existent to the level we currently have would take approximately ten years – maybe longer. Of course, the pilots can be sent to work with the US Navy or someone else, to build up experience of carrier operations. However, operating fixed wing aircraft (and helicopters to a certain extent) is a whole ship activity. It does not only involve the aircrew and flight deck personnel, but virtually everyone. There is no way we can send hundreds of sailors to work in American carriers, and most of these specialist skills need to be maintained by constant practice. Many are carrier specific.
On the flight deck, aircraft handlers need to be able to speedily and safely move aircraft around the flight deck, both by giving visual cues to pilots and by using vehicles. They also need to be able to deal with any fires or other incidents that might occur. The RN School of Flight Deck Operations at RNAS Culdrose has a dummy deck, dubbed HMS Siskin, where aircraft handlers learn their trade. Real aircraft, including a number of retired Sea Harriers, are used and move under their own power to simulate a carrier deck. However, they cannot simulate the movement of a ship at sea in variable sea conditions, pitching and rolling. Nor can they simulate things such the carrier increasing speed to launch aircraft and the sudden wind over the deck. Getting experience of these things and building experience and confidence requires people to spend time at sea working with aircraft for real. This is a key skill area that will decline very rapidly if we have no flying from carriers.
Other personnel may also need to work on the flight deck, amongst the aircraft. These include the people who maintain the aircraft, and those who fuel and arm them. They too need experience of doing it for real.
Beyond the flight deck, lots of other personnel in different parts of the ship are involved. These include the Navigating Officer and the Officer of the Watch and his/her team on the bridge, who must ensure that the ship is on the right heading for flying operations. The Commander (Air) and his team are responsible for running aviation activities. The marine engineering watchkeepers in the Ship Control Centre are responsible for increasing the speed of the carrier’s engines when needed for launching aircraft, they also carry out adjustments to things such as the ship’s trim, so as to maintain a level deck for flying. There are various sensors, communications systems and landing aids that need to be maintained and operated. All of these are things that demand time spent practising at sea.
Air Traffic Control is of critical importance, as are others who are involved in airspace management. A carrier is unlike any airfield in that she moves. Land based ATC cannot provide the same experience. Her command team must also consider the constraints put on her movements by the maritime environment, by her escorts, and by the need to be aware of the existence of things such as merchant shipping or fishing boats. The aircrew that fly from the deck also need to have an understanding of all these issues. They must also understand how they fit in with the rest of the ship and task group. Finally, no carrier operations mean that in ten years time, there will be no senior naval officers with experience or understanding of these complex issues.
Most of these things cannot be taught on a dummy deck, or in a simulator, but need developing by real flying aboard real decks. The RN has been doing this for many decades, and the experience and expertise, much of it won at great cost, handed down. It seems unlikely that the body of experience would survive a ten year gap of non use. Interestingly, young officers entering the training pipeline to become pilots or observers have been told that to go from scratch to the level of expertise we currently have would take ten years – this is based on the experience of others Navies like those of Spain and Italy who have gained carriers more recently than us.
Some of my comments here are based on what I was fortunate to witness aboard HMS Illustrious in late 2007. Although I had a pretty good idea of what to expect, the number of different parts of ship involved in maintaining safe and effective flying operations took me by surprise. The teamwork was impressive. If a mere [me - a Reservist junior rate] can see this, why does the review turn a blind eye? Whilst in the dinner queue one evening I looked in a magazine I found loafing, there was an article in which a senior aviator (ex Sea Harrier) commented on the danger of future Fleet Air Arm personnel becoming unfamiliar with the shipboard environment and deck operations. My path has crossed with aviation connected personnel at other times, and they have all expressed similar views.
Edit: In reply to MrDave (below) the Argentines do indeed embark their Super Eterndards aboard US and Brazilian carriers when they can, and I didn't know about the personnel exchanges, but could they operate a carrier if they suddenly acquired one? I suspect not.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 30th May 2011 at 16:05.
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The Argentinian fleet air arm (just because im tired and cannot be bothered to spell) keeps its pilots and deck crews experienced by flying off US navy aircraft carriers whenever they are near Argentina and by having deck crews working on US navy carriers and Brazillian carriers as well as postings with the French navy. We have far closer ties to the french and US Navy so I cant see why the Royal Navy cant train personel even when we dont have carriers yet.
Our needs and ways of operating will of course be different to the French and Americans in detail, but the boys and girls learning how to make things work will no doubt get the training they need and then will build from there. Steep learning curve for sure but they arent starting completely from scratch.
All this naysaying about not being able to have trained crews is just dull. We have people already learning how to operate with the US Navy and the numbers will only increase in the run up to the carriers coming into comission.
Our needs and ways of operating will of course be different to the French and Americans in detail, but the boys and girls learning how to make things work will no doubt get the training they need and then will build from there. Steep learning curve for sure but they arent starting completely from scratch.
All this naysaying about not being able to have trained crews is just dull. We have people already learning how to operate with the US Navy and the numbers will only increase in the run up to the carriers coming into comission.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
1. They will still need to relearn carrier ops if they get the F35 VTOL.
2. They will have greater lessons to learn if they go fixed wing; the last fixed wing was 42 years ago (I think). [/I]
Err, the last fixed-wing launch from Ark Royal was less than 12 months ago.......
2. They will have greater lessons to learn if they go fixed wing; the last fixed wing was 42 years ago (I think). [/I]
Err, the last fixed-wing launch from Ark Royal was less than 12 months ago.......
Wearing a FJ on your bum is the least of the problems organising an air group.
Indeed. But I thought you were suggesting that we hadn't operated fixed-wing in forty-odd years.......
The last time we operated anything close to a real CAG was early noughties doing Southern Watch / Deny Flight over Iraq IIRC and that was less than 20 cabs aboard.
Getting it back is as you suggest, going to be a bit tricky.
The last time we operated anything close to a real CAG was early noughties doing Southern Watch / Deny Flight over Iraq IIRC and that was less than 20 cabs aboard.
Getting it back is as you suggest, going to be a bit tricky.