Armed Forces Covenant 'Law'
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Frozen South
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Armed Forces Covenant 'Law'
BBC News - Talks over military covenant legal status
What tangible, real-world benefits is this going to bring? As far as I can see its vague and wide open to interpretation.
If you were to write it, what would you include in the 'Law'?
Personally, I would clearly state that the Armed Forces are a completely different entity to any other corporation or governmental organisation in the country. There is no higher sacrifice than your own life and the risks are high, therefore the rewards must be too.
Pay must be at a specific percentage higher than the equivelant average civilian salary. Pay is not to be linked to the rest of the public sector.
The Armed Forces and their families are to be given the highest of priority for medical care/enrollment at medical or dental facilities.
Existing Armed Forces Pensions are not to be altered without the express consent of the pension holder.
If the reputation of the Armed Forces is brought into disripute by the press without legitimate reason - punishable by....
If the Armed Forces are deliberately insulted or harrassed in public due to a political decision (operations) - punishable by...
What else would you include?
What tangible, real-world benefits is this going to bring? As far as I can see its vague and wide open to interpretation.
If you were to write it, what would you include in the 'Law'?
Personally, I would clearly state that the Armed Forces are a completely different entity to any other corporation or governmental organisation in the country. There is no higher sacrifice than your own life and the risks are high, therefore the rewards must be too.
Pay must be at a specific percentage higher than the equivelant average civilian salary. Pay is not to be linked to the rest of the public sector.
The Armed Forces and their families are to be given the highest of priority for medical care/enrollment at medical or dental facilities.
Existing Armed Forces Pensions are not to be altered without the express consent of the pension holder.
If the reputation of the Armed Forces is brought into disripute by the press without legitimate reason - punishable by....
If the Armed Forces are deliberately insulted or harrassed in public due to a political decision (operations) - punishable by...
What else would you include?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You state:
Then go on to say:
How can there be an equivalent civilian salary if the AF are a completely different entity...
Yes the Armed Forces are a high risk job, for most of the members, but it is what you sign up for.
Why should you or your families be given higher medical priority than civvies? For members of AF who suffer an injury in the line of duty, fair enough, but otherwise?
Pensions - I agree (but not just for members of AF), but its getting more and more difficult to justify final salary schemes... especially if you do not put money into the pot (and yes I know that the non contribution is part of the 'x' factor that you do not get paid - far better being transparent and paying you full wages without 'x' factor, then take pension contributions from your wage each month... make it harder to alter pension rights then as well)
... The right of anyone, mil or civvy individual, armed forces or civvy business; what chance though when it seems the News of The World is getting away with phone taps etc (small payouts aside), when it is illegal for the Police to tap phones without a Magistrates consent.
There are things that should be done for the Armed Forces as a matter of course, but don't go thinking that you are more 'special' than civvies. Everyone has their role to play, civvies and mil.
The AF Covenant should be about proper respect for the AF and proper duty of care, not about jumping waiting lists at doctors or dentists etc.
PS before you lay into me, I'm ex-forces (FAA) have a lot of friends still in service and am a staunch supporter of our Armed Forces. Loved every minute of my time served but never once thought that I was better than anyone else (RAF aside ), civvy or mil. You know what you are signing up for, and certainly don't deserve special treatment as a matter of course just for doing so.
What you do (and always have in the past) deserve is to be treated fairly, with respect and dignity and if the sh!t hits the fan, to be looked after to the very best ability of the state. That in my opinion is what any Covenant should be about, however it makes me feel sad that we have to have a covenant to ensure this... it should happen as a matter of course.
Personally, I would clearly state that the Armed Forces are a completely different entity to any other corporation or governmental organisation in the country
Pay must be at a specific percentage higher than the equivelant average civilian salary
Yes the Armed Forces are a high risk job, for most of the members, but it is what you sign up for.
Why should you or your families be given higher medical priority than civvies? For members of AF who suffer an injury in the line of duty, fair enough, but otherwise?
Pensions - I agree (but not just for members of AF), but its getting more and more difficult to justify final salary schemes... especially if you do not put money into the pot (and yes I know that the non contribution is part of the 'x' factor that you do not get paid - far better being transparent and paying you full wages without 'x' factor, then take pension contributions from your wage each month... make it harder to alter pension rights then as well)
If the reputation of the Armed Forces is brought into disripute by the press without legitimate reason - punishable by....
There are things that should be done for the Armed Forces as a matter of course, but don't go thinking that you are more 'special' than civvies. Everyone has their role to play, civvies and mil.
The AF Covenant should be about proper respect for the AF and proper duty of care, not about jumping waiting lists at doctors or dentists etc.
PS before you lay into me, I'm ex-forces (FAA) have a lot of friends still in service and am a staunch supporter of our Armed Forces. Loved every minute of my time served but never once thought that I was better than anyone else (RAF aside ), civvy or mil. You know what you are signing up for, and certainly don't deserve special treatment as a matter of course just for doing so.
What you do (and always have in the past) deserve is to be treated fairly, with respect and dignity and if the sh!t hits the fan, to be looked after to the very best ability of the state. That in my opinion is what any Covenant should be about, however it makes me feel sad that we have to have a covenant to ensure this... it should happen as a matter of course.
Last edited by anotherthing; 14th May 2011 at 14:22.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 543
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Armed Forces Covenant is an important issue to all who served.
Anyone non-military or ex military but based in safer climes who comments on this thread should start by saying:
"I went to work this morning and knew for a fact that I was coming home to my family this evening, but............."
If you served in a shooting war or, in my case, flew aeroplanes that crashed regularly, it certainly focussed the mind. I attended too many funerals over the years.
They died serving their Country and Her Majesty, and I for one am grateful.
In that context comment away.
Anyone non-military or ex military but based in safer climes who comments on this thread should start by saying:
"I went to work this morning and knew for a fact that I was coming home to my family this evening, but............."
If you served in a shooting war or, in my case, flew aeroplanes that crashed regularly, it certainly focussed the mind. I attended too many funerals over the years.
They died serving their Country and Her Majesty, and I for one am grateful.
In that context comment away.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Frozen South
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry anotherthing - I disagree.
Equivelant salaries - As I'm sure you know, there are chefs, engineers, technicians in the armed forces all of whom carry the additional risk of getting shot/blown up. You think they should be payed the same as a civilian?
Medical priority - Armed Forces personnel almost without exception have to move every 2-3 years with a huge effect on their families - you think that they should drop to the bottom of the list because they now have to sign up to a new dental/medical facility?
Pensions - Just look at the crushing effect even rumoured changes are causing amongst those who serve.
Special? Of course the Armed Forces are special - to my mind, no other job requires greater self-sacrifice than accepting the possibility of losing your one and only life to a political decision. It just doesn't compare to civvie street as much as that may burn.
Equivelant salaries - As I'm sure you know, there are chefs, engineers, technicians in the armed forces all of whom carry the additional risk of getting shot/blown up. You think they should be payed the same as a civilian?
Medical priority - Armed Forces personnel almost without exception have to move every 2-3 years with a huge effect on their families - you think that they should drop to the bottom of the list because they now have to sign up to a new dental/medical facility?
Pensions - Just look at the crushing effect even rumoured changes are causing amongst those who serve.
Special? Of course the Armed Forces are special - to my mind, no other job requires greater self-sacrifice than accepting the possibility of losing your one and only life to a political decision. It just doesn't compare to civvie street as much as that may burn.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Call me cynic-al, but the moment you expose something intangible to structured State control and regulation, things go downhill. Soon (DV), when the ink on this will have dried and the military won't be fighting so many wars and might be off the public radar once again, the grip will have been firmly tightened by a battalion of detail picking, parsimonious and small minded quangos and civil servants and prized away from insightful, dedicated Service charities. Then, we will all wish that we could once more, rely on nothing more than public goodwill, compassion, common sense and sensitivity. Second point - God preserve us from yet more legislation. Exhibit One sir.. the Freedom of Information Act. I rest my case.
I don't think that Servicemen and women need to be treated any better, as such. Just treated with respect and fairly. The job that an infanteer does might be more dangerous than a Care Nurse, but it is no less vital (God knows the NHS needs protecting at the moment too). Pension legislation is creating problems throughout the land, but it is creating problems for everyone (I understand the unique nature of the military scheme) and its a statement of our times and not so much, the measure of disrespect society holds us in, that should be remembered. We have to reflect society and those we step forward to look after and the moment we say (in effect) that we no longer wish to stand side by side with our fellow workers, the perception of us.. our value and prestige will start to erode over time, as memories fade. I think the principle of doing that is at least as important as nicking back a few quid, and although we can do lots to offset the disadvantage that SP might find themselves in Civvy Street, it has to be done so much more cleverly than by just chucking money at it.
I don't think that Servicemen and women need to be treated any better, as such. Just treated with respect and fairly. The job that an infanteer does might be more dangerous than a Care Nurse, but it is no less vital (God knows the NHS needs protecting at the moment too). Pension legislation is creating problems throughout the land, but it is creating problems for everyone (I understand the unique nature of the military scheme) and its a statement of our times and not so much, the measure of disrespect society holds us in, that should be remembered. We have to reflect society and those we step forward to look after and the moment we say (in effect) that we no longer wish to stand side by side with our fellow workers, the perception of us.. our value and prestige will start to erode over time, as memories fade. I think the principle of doing that is at least as important as nicking back a few quid, and although we can do lots to offset the disadvantage that SP might find themselves in Civvy Street, it has to be done so much more cleverly than by just chucking money at it.
Last edited by Al R; 15th May 2011 at 07:16.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Frozen South
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So should the law be re-phrased to say that the armed forces should be treated the same as an ordinary civilian - no more,no less? Why bother then? In my opinion a care nurse has a demanding job to do, but comparable to walking down a street with a sniper threat, or defusing an IED, it simply isn't. Should the forces be treated better? Of course they should.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
While it is trus that many in civilian jobs will place job ahead of family, in the armed forces this is far truer. They will be torn between their team/crew or whatever and their family. This conflict will be eased if they know that their loved ones will be looked after without them having to worry.
For instance Miss PN2 was due at the same time as my crew was slated to fly an operational sortie. While other navs would have been available and even keen to take my place I didn't want to leave me crew. I knew that there would be good support for her while I was away.
Even earlier, a squadron was deployed to Malta for two months and the same day one of the nav's wives gave birth; they still went with the wife being looked after at a military hospital at Nocton Hall.
We were treated quite differently in those days. What the OP is asking for is really no more than we already had.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To me, the biggest issue is to ensure that veterans who are suffering health problems get the treatment that they need! I'm particularly thinking about those that suffer mental health problems years after they have left the Armed Forces, but as a direct result of their service.
One of the main obstacles that often stands in the way to veterans quickly getting help is that they have nothing tangible to prove that they were ever in the forces. Doctors have little time to spare these days and certainly do not have the resources to act as detective. So in my view, issuing a veterans' ID card has got to be one of the first tangible results of a legal Military Covenant. If that doesn’t materialise, then I’m afraid that I’ll continue to be very sceptical about the government’s real commitment.
MoD Announcement on the issue of Veteran's ID Cards - April 2009
Veterans win fight for 'smart ID cards' - 30 Mar 2009
Anyone seen one yet?
Come on Patrick!
One of the main obstacles that often stands in the way to veterans quickly getting help is that they have nothing tangible to prove that they were ever in the forces. Doctors have little time to spare these days and certainly do not have the resources to act as detective. So in my view, issuing a veterans' ID card has got to be one of the first tangible results of a legal Military Covenant. If that doesn’t materialise, then I’m afraid that I’ll continue to be very sceptical about the government’s real commitment.
MoD Announcement on the issue of Veteran's ID Cards - April 2009
It is thought that under the proposed plans more than four million former members of the Armed Forces could benefit from preferential treatment on the NHS and, where necessary, access to council housing. These were some of the recommendations made by a Conservative Commission in 2008 where it was considered that greater efforts should be made to rebuild the Military Covenant, an unwritten pact whereby serving and retired members of the Armed Forces receive special treatment in recognition of the sacrifices they have made.
Four million former servicemen and women are to be given veterans' cards to ensure they get priority treatment for NHS healthcare and housing, and discounts for services such as transport.
The Ministry of Defence plans to introduce the cards at the beginning of 2010, The Independent has learnt, in an attempt to begin repairing the damage done to the military covenant between nation and armed forces under New Labour.
The Ministry of Defence plans to introduce the cards at the beginning of 2010, The Independent has learnt, in an attempt to begin repairing the damage done to the military covenant between nation and armed forces under New Labour.
The Conservative MP Patrick Mercer, former commanding officer with the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters Regiment, said: "It is about bloody time. At last, a reasonable, sensible minister [Mr Jones] who listens to ideas from across the political spectrum." 30 Mar 2009
Last edited by LFFC; 15th May 2011 at 12:05.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So should the law be re-phrased to say that the armed forces should be treated the same as an ordinary civilian - no more,no less? Why bother then? In my opinion a care nurse has a demanding job to do, but comparable to walking down a street with a sniper threat, or defusing an IED, it simply isn't. Should the forces be treated better? Of course they should.
I have ongoing needs as a result of my service but I joined up for the craic and a bit of experience and I didn't/don't see myself as better or worse than anyone else. The Forces should be treated commensurate with their circumstances, sure, but the point about this is that we should not be placed on a pedestal just because we volunteered, but that we should not be unfairly disadvantaged at the time and point of need when (and if) we need to address the results and consequences of matters arising as a result of our service. I do think that the system should be weighted better so that the playing field is at least level in terms of outcomes but I don't think that a firefighter who gets badly injured fighting a fire should be queue jumped by a serviceman, for instance, simply because of a previous employment code. I do believe that if the MoD retains an ongoing duty of care too, and if that means retaining a stake in Veterans Hospitals (as if, I know) so the quality of care for the badly injured can be assured, then so be it.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To me, the biggest issue is to ensure that veterans who are suffering health problems get the treatment that they need! I'm particularly thinking about those that suffer mental health problems years after they have left the Armed Forces, but as a direct result of their service.
PN, you have a point, but what about firemen, police, surgeons etc who have to have their finger on the pulse at work? Will they not have the same worries in the back of their minds if their loved ones are ill but are waiting in a queue? There is no easy answer to it and there are so many ways of looking at it!
Blindwingy, I will concede a point as you clarified something in your reply to me. When a service family moves they should be put to the top of the list when it comes to being able to register with a doctor/dentist. That should actually be easy enough to ensure as they usually move to take over someone elses job, ergo the space should be available at the doctors' etc.
It would be a very easy thing for the government to dictate that there were places kept by for this very purpose. However once registered I don't think they should have any priority over someone else who needs the same treatment. For the actual serving personnel, then the in-house medical facilities should be used (and brought back up to a level that they are capable of doing so).
So should the law be re-phrased to say that the armed forces should be treated the same as an ordinary civilian - no more,no less? Why bother then?
If you look around at other armed forces, it is pretty near the 'going rate'. Rightly or wrongly, market forces come into play even when setting the pay of the military. If recruits dry up, then you might see an uplift in pay etc to entice people in...
Gehoovah
Anyone non-military or ex military but based in safer climes who comments on this thread should start by saying:
"I went to work this morning and knew for a fact that I was coming home to my family this evening, but............."
If you served in a shooting war or, in my case, flew aeroplanes that crashed regularly, it certainly focussed the mind. I attended too many funerals over the years.
"I went to work this morning and knew for a fact that I was coming home to my family this evening, but............."
If you served in a shooting war or, in my case, flew aeroplanes that crashed regularly, it certainly focussed the mind. I attended too many funerals over the years.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Lancashire
Age: 48
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I hope they address the main issue. Soldiers should not be sent to fight wars based on lies. When you sign on the dotted line for Queen and country, it is on the assumption that if you have to give your life, it is for a just and noble cause, and not some bell-end's ego trip.
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK
Posts: 3,040
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Veterans' ID Card.
LFFC asked if anyone had seen a Veterans' ID Card.
Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill
Thursday 17 February 2011. [Mr James Arbuthnot in the Chair]
Armed Forces Bill
New Clause 1
Veterans ID card
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall institute a Veterans’ Identification Card to assist former members of the armed forces in obtaining the access to public services to which they are entitled, including priority treatment on the National Health Service and other services which may become available to them from other organisations.(2) In this section “veteran” is taken to mean former members of any of Her Majesty’s Forces who are ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom.’.—(Alex Cunningham.)
House of Commons Northern Ireland Grand Committee : Armed Forces Bill
Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill
Thursday 17 February 2011. [Mr James Arbuthnot in the Chair]
Armed Forces Bill
New Clause 1
Veterans ID card
‘(1) The Secretary of State shall institute a Veterans’ Identification Card to assist former members of the armed forces in obtaining the access to public services to which they are entitled, including priority treatment on the National Health Service and other services which may become available to them from other organisations.(2) In this section “veteran” is taken to mean former members of any of Her Majesty’s Forces who are ordinarily resident in the United Kingdom.’.—(Alex Cunningham.)
House of Commons Northern Ireland Grand Committee : Armed Forces Bill
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,515
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion a care nurse has a demanding job to do, but comparable to walking down a street with a sniper threat, or defusing an IED, it simply isn't.
The armed forces are already paid far more than the rest of the public sector...as a twenty year old Sergeant I was on more than a police constable with 10 years service or an assistant head teacher at a small school (friends of mine).
The armed forces need to be well paid and well looked after. In the main they already are. They also need to take some of the current cutbacks on the chin, just like everybody else.
The armed forces ARE a special case. So are nurses, the police, the fire service and just about everbody who has put public service over personal profit. The armed forces are part and parcel of the public sector and therefore - in part - what you get is what the country can afford to pay you.
PS
Pious Pilot...well said
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 66
Posts: 1,460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Simple really...
Every benefit and privilege that is heaped upon the sick, lame, lazy, (illegal or not) immigrant, politician, pikey and criminal leeches must be offered freely to all servicemen and their immediate families. Each service is to form a unit of SNCO's and WO's* who's task it is to know the entire benefits system and is to monitor servicemen and their families to ensure that they are all enjoying everything they are entitled to. That way, you wouldn't need to worry about paying them.
* One wouldn't want Officers who may be "career focused" to be able to be pressured into "cost savings"... We all know what happened to airworthiness...
[Edit]
I'm uncertain if sending troops into combat operations requires and act of Parliament which would then require the Assent of Her Majesty but maybe, since we all signed up for "Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors" and not said "bell end", the act of sending her men and women into harms way should also require Royal Assent... Just a thought...
[/Edit]
Every benefit and privilege that is heaped upon the sick, lame, lazy, (illegal or not) immigrant, politician, pikey and criminal leeches must be offered freely to all servicemen and their immediate families. Each service is to form a unit of SNCO's and WO's* who's task it is to know the entire benefits system and is to monitor servicemen and their families to ensure that they are all enjoying everything they are entitled to. That way, you wouldn't need to worry about paying them.
* One wouldn't want Officers who may be "career focused" to be able to be pressured into "cost savings"... We all know what happened to airworthiness...
[Edit]
I hope they address the main issue. Soldiers should not be sent to fight wars based on lies. When you sign on the dotted line for Queen and country, it is on the assumption that if you have to give your life, it is for a just and noble cause, and not some bell-end's ego trip.
[/Edit]
My first thought when I heard about this was "yes lovely but I'm sure they'd rather have had better tanks/planes/ships."
Surely this is just a whitewash, so the can claim to have done something positive without actually having to bother doing anything concrete?
P
Surely this is just a whitewash, so the can claim to have done something positive without actually having to bother doing anything concrete?
P
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Frozen South
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old Fat One. Many in the public sector have difficult jobs and are worthy of praise and reward. Your example of a care nurse being groped in a dementia ward is horrible, but you think its comparable to taking a round of hot lead in the chest? How about waking up in a tent looking at the large gap where your legs used to be? I think that it would be very educational for some of the people on this forum to go to Headley Court and remind the 'Public Sector Workers' that they shouldn't expect to be treated better than the rest of us.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that it would be very educational for some of the people on this forum to go to Headley Court and remind the 'Public Sector Workers' that they shouldn't expect to be treated better than the rest of us.
That's a totally different concept compared to what you are talking about.