Bin Laden Dead
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How sweet! A Guardian reader!
I think we are some way past due process and your legal nonsense. The guy was a key proponent in the deaths of 3000 people in the world trade centers.
Quite frankly, a bullet in the head was too good for him.
I think we are some way past due process and your legal nonsense. The guy was a key proponent in the deaths of 3000 people in the world trade centers.
Quite frankly, a bullet in the head was too good for him.
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"How sweet! A Guardian reader!" - How condescending and trollish! Nothing like a poor attempt at an ad hominem attack to confirm that you can't actually argue the point, eh?
You don't get to claim the moral high ground if you go around summarily executing people. IF he was unarmed and did not resist, or IF this was a kill (as opposed to capture) mission, then the US has lost the moral war.
If you're so sure this was the right thing to do then what is there to fear from a trial?
You don't get to claim the moral high ground if you go around summarily executing people. IF he was unarmed and did not resist, or IF this was a kill (as opposed to capture) mission, then the US has lost the moral war.
If you're so sure this was the right thing to do then what is there to fear from a trial?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
For example, deception operations in WW2 depended upon the credibilty of the information that was 'discovered' by the Nazis. There were self-evident elements of truth with credible seeds of disinformation.
Today the CIA say that OBL's computers were unencrypted, whereas every other computer captured was encrypted, and that they are gettingm huge volumes of information from them. This gels with the 'mother lode of intelligence' story, that like the initial hotreps, was released so early that is it was doubtful it the computers had even been switched on. Forensic analysis dictates that the hard drive must be copied before the computer is switched on. Who believes the CIA now?
In the ephoria of tactical success the US has made a grave strategic error; do they realise this?
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Oh fer Chrissake. Stop the hand wringing about the human justice involved in the perfectly lawful, even if admitted in some quarters as the ex judicial execution of the world's most hunted, self admitted and acknowledged terrorist.
This is the scum who openly laughed and joked with his cynical pond life yes men at the video of human beings who only had the choice on 9/11 to burn or jump to their deaths. The deaths of 3000 people of all faiths and creeds on 9/11 and the subsequent tens of thousands of muslims and non muslims since then rests clearly with him and if indeed he is judged by his maker under the tenets of the Koran he will be burning in hell for his crimes against humanity and outright murder.
Simpering wimps who are so concerned about Osama's well being should have tried being held captive by him or his thugs, before a bestial and degrading beheading spectacle. If he had been taken alive, the morons who follow his perversion of Islam would have been out there beheading, murdering and slaughtering innocents demanding his release - unthinkable, so no show trial was ever on the cards for him. Live with it.
This is the scum who openly laughed and joked with his cynical pond life yes men at the video of human beings who only had the choice on 9/11 to burn or jump to their deaths. The deaths of 3000 people of all faiths and creeds on 9/11 and the subsequent tens of thousands of muslims and non muslims since then rests clearly with him and if indeed he is judged by his maker under the tenets of the Koran he will be burning in hell for his crimes against humanity and outright murder.
Simpering wimps who are so concerned about Osama's well being should have tried being held captive by him or his thugs, before a bestial and degrading beheading spectacle. If he had been taken alive, the morons who follow his perversion of Islam would have been out there beheading, murdering and slaughtering innocents demanding his release - unthinkable, so no show trial was ever on the cards for him. Live with it.
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Ptt, I dont recognise this new world order jingoistic legalese rubbish that the west seems to have come up with in the last 15 years. We fight to win. If that means slotting our enemies in their sleep, unarmed, so be it. This message is important - you can run, but you can die trying.
The death of OBL in the middle east may be treated as some as a grave injustice. Quite frankly, I couldnt give 2 hoots. We didnt win WW2 by holding back; we won by flattening Dresden and a hundred other cities to boot.
The death of OBL in the middle east may be treated as some as a grave injustice. Quite frankly, I couldnt give 2 hoots. We didnt win WW2 by holding back; we won by flattening Dresden and a hundred other cities to boot.
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Law of the land
Well in my opinion he was killed on Pakistani Soil, therefore the law of that land should be applicable. If not mistaken they still follow some form of Sharia, therefore an eye for an eye is permitted.
Since the Pakistanis are claiming that he is responsible for so many 1000 deaths in their country then under the laws of their land what was done is legal and so as to respect their "sovereignty"" which has been dented in recent times lets not play human rights and respect the law of their land to which the SEALS adhered to.
(PS: if the Pakistan Government has not filed an FIR then no crime has been committed so then stop barking).
Now let me get that new Osama Bin Ladin Cocktail going this weekend:
What was that?
2 Shots and a splash of Saltwater make one tasty cocktail. Cheers!
Edited to add the salt water!!
Since the Pakistanis are claiming that he is responsible for so many 1000 deaths in their country then under the laws of their land what was done is legal and so as to respect their "sovereignty"" which has been dented in recent times lets not play human rights and respect the law of their land to which the SEALS adhered to.
(PS: if the Pakistan Government has not filed an FIR then no crime has been committed so then stop barking).Now let me get that new Osama Bin Ladin Cocktail going this weekend:
What was that?
2 Shots and a splash of Saltwater make one tasty cocktail. Cheers!
Edited to add the salt water!!
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Oh, and another point for PTT.
The farcical show trials of the likes of Saddam Hussein, Abdulbasset Al Megrahi, Milosevic and other high profile criminals and murderers for the media just to show a semblance of due process to the bleeding heart liberals prove there is no real justice in dealing with such people.
The human race is well rid of bin Laden, no matter how ruthlessly it was done. There was no doubt about his guilt as he admitted it himself with a fanfare regularly, and his elevation to the status of the victim in all this by western hand wringers is just laughable.
Had the Brits found Saddam in his cockroach bolthole I suspect an L109A1 would have avoided the cost and anti western propaganda which followed during the legal circus in Baghdad
The farcical show trials of the likes of Saddam Hussein, Abdulbasset Al Megrahi, Milosevic and other high profile criminals and murderers for the media just to show a semblance of due process to the bleeding heart liberals prove there is no real justice in dealing with such people.
The human race is well rid of bin Laden, no matter how ruthlessly it was done. There was no doubt about his guilt as he admitted it himself with a fanfare regularly, and his elevation to the status of the victim in all this by western hand wringers is just laughable.
Had the Brits found Saddam in his cockroach bolthole I suspect an L109A1 would have avoided the cost and anti western propaganda which followed during the legal circus in Baghdad
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Golly, the stench of testosterone on this thread is making me dizzy...
It's not about ending the life of someone who was long past his sell by date. It's about being seen to be better than your adversaries.
The manner of his demise may scare the living daylights out of his colleagues (though I don't for one second think it will) but it, and the three-or-four-versions-thus-far, sure look bad to Mr & Mrs Average sitting in their living room wondering what the world is coming to. And it's this audience which counts, dear PPRuNers, just in case you'd forgotten what your democracies were meant to be all about.
Yes, if you'd captured him the hostage beheadings would be taking place as we type. So, in effect, your actions demonstrate that the fear of further terrorism led you to place aside your own moral values. The very values which are meant to differentiate you from the bad guys in the first place.
Tell me again, who's winning here?
It's not about ending the life of someone who was long past his sell by date. It's about being seen to be better than your adversaries.
The manner of his demise may scare the living daylights out of his colleagues (though I don't for one second think it will) but it, and the three-or-four-versions-thus-far, sure look bad to Mr & Mrs Average sitting in their living room wondering what the world is coming to. And it's this audience which counts, dear PPRuNers, just in case you'd forgotten what your democracies were meant to be all about.
Yes, if you'd captured him the hostage beheadings would be taking place as we type. So, in effect, your actions demonstrate that the fear of further terrorism led you to place aside your own moral values. The very values which are meant to differentiate you from the bad guys in the first place.
Tell me again, who's winning here?
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Utter c0ck. Its about winning. Nothing more, nothing less. I think the average american would have preferred to see him skinned alive than get away with a shot to the head.
And doing it in that manner doesnt show any fear of terrorists. Actually, quite the oppsite. You are quite willing to double the misery back in order that their wicked ways dont affect the rest of the population. You might want to research what the french got up to in Algeria. The fact that the other side are more than willing to use tactics against civilians using children in bomb vests shouldnt limit our guile in liquidating those responsible.
AQ have just confirmed he is dead.
And doing it in that manner doesnt show any fear of terrorists. Actually, quite the oppsite. You are quite willing to double the misery back in order that their wicked ways dont affect the rest of the population. You might want to research what the french got up to in Algeria. The fact that the other side are more than willing to use tactics against civilians using children in bomb vests shouldnt limit our guile in liquidating those responsible.
AQ have just confirmed he is dead.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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All this goes to prove that it is not possible to conduct a war in full view of the media, which brings that war into peoples living quarters, where they are in no way effected by the war and have the luxury of armchair observance.
Option One: Take out OBL in a SF operation and suffer the libertarians hand wringing afterwards.
Option Two: Take OBL prisoner, suffer the ritual and televised execution of tens, if not hundreds, of hostages, put OBL on trial at a cost to the public of millions and eventually, millions of appeal dollars later, execute him and return his body to his relatives for glorification.
Sorry, but it has to be Option One, no contest.
Option One: Take out OBL in a SF operation and suffer the libertarians hand wringing afterwards.
Option Two: Take OBL prisoner, suffer the ritual and televised execution of tens, if not hundreds, of hostages, put OBL on trial at a cost to the public of millions and eventually, millions of appeal dollars later, execute him and return his body to his relatives for glorification.
Sorry, but it has to be Option One, no contest.
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This is a rumour forum and I get it that speculation is allowed and encouraged. However, as many have said, before we get all judgemental on any erosion on the rule of law we should at least first try to understand the circumstances of the death of OBL. I remember one observer's comment following the tragic death of Jean Charles de Menezes that "whatever else we think when we judge the incident we should not forget that there were people who were prepared to move towards the man that they felt at the time was carrying a suicide vest with the intention of setting it off at any moment" and I for one am glad that there are such brave men and ladies around. Who knows what pressures the SEAL Team 6 members moving through the compound and house were under - I am certain that they would have expected OBL to be defended, to defend himself and probably to have been wearing a suicide vest. All of this at night and following a helicopter incident which I am sure that they had not fully analysed or understood. Regardless of any intent or direction before the raid OBL was likely to die once the mission was authorised and I am glad that the op was authorised. As for anyone getting in a twist about "a full enquiry" I think we all know where that will lead. Question one "were you in immediate fear for your life when you fired" Answer one "yes" and all corroborated by SEAL 2 - where exactly would the enquiry go from there?
On a slightly separate note, I am also slightly puzzled by the furore over the rule of law aspects of this specific event while the targeting of opposition military and political leaders happens in every conflict - how many drone killings of senior Taliban in Afghanistan recently?
On a slightly separate note, I am also slightly puzzled by the furore over the rule of law aspects of this specific event while the targeting of opposition military and political leaders happens in every conflict - how many drone killings of senior Taliban in Afghanistan recently?
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The point is not that it's a bad thing that he's dead - it's not a bad thing at all, imo. The point is that it is a bad thing to be seen as a people who revel in the death of their enemy. It legitimises the actions of Bin Laden, as he did exactly the same thing, and the rest of AQ (or whoever) do too. You legitimise the actions of terrorists everywhere.
The short-sightedness of the celebration over killing a single man is, frankly, astonishing. These people are criminals, and should be treated as such - treat them as combatants and you legitimise them as equals; give them a fair trial and you show not only that they are criminals, but that you are better than to stoop to their level.
Yes, it's about winning, but you have to define what winning is. It's not the death of one man, no matter how hated. It's not the killing of Taliban leaders with drones (legally questionable, too). It's proving that this way of life with justice and the rule of law is better. It's an ideological battle, and it's one that crowing over the death of an enemy, or his deliberate targeting for death, doesn't help to win - quite the opposite, as it turns us into hypocrites. And ultimately, you can't kill the real enemy with bullets, because the real enemy is not a person, it's an idea.
The short-sightedness of the celebration over killing a single man is, frankly, astonishing. These people are criminals, and should be treated as such - treat them as combatants and you legitimise them as equals; give them a fair trial and you show not only that they are criminals, but that you are better than to stoop to their level.
Yes, it's about winning, but you have to define what winning is. It's not the death of one man, no matter how hated. It's not the killing of Taliban leaders with drones (legally questionable, too). It's proving that this way of life with justice and the rule of law is better. It's an ideological battle, and it's one that crowing over the death of an enemy, or his deliberate targeting for death, doesn't help to win - quite the opposite, as it turns us into hypocrites. And ultimately, you can't kill the real enemy with bullets, because the real enemy is not a person, it's an idea.
Osama, I couldn't stand the evil SOB and wished him dead. But it would have been better - was it able, to capture him; to have captured him and put him on trial for the 9-11, London, Madrid, Bali & all the other acts he planned or inspired.
Now - if 'we' choose to 'off' him we should have our story and reasons clear before it goes public; the drip feed of truths, corrections, contradictions and rumours do us no good.
No one trusts government anymore - so - be honest. No point lying through your arse it'll get Wikileaked or similar.
'He was killed in a military operation to attempt to capture him, but no risk to our people was to be tolerated - any sign of resistance would be and was met with the ultimate force. He had his chance to face justice after 9-11, he chose not to, he chose to continue killing innocents - he selected the manner and timing of his death - not us.'
Now - if 'we' choose to 'off' him we should have our story and reasons clear before it goes public; the drip feed of truths, corrections, contradictions and rumours do us no good.
No one trusts government anymore - so - be honest. No point lying through your arse it'll get Wikileaked or similar.
'He was killed in a military operation to attempt to capture him, but no risk to our people was to be tolerated - any sign of resistance would be and was met with the ultimate force. He had his chance to face justice after 9-11, he chose not to, he chose to continue killing innocents - he selected the manner and timing of his death - not us.'
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My personal opinion is that OBL was a bit of a spent bullet; he remained a firgurehead only and was no longer - so reports tell us - involved in the operation side of things for AQ.
His death at the hands of US military may well provide closure to the many who suffered at his hands. And this is a good thing.
I am particularly glad that he lived long enough to see his dream of the re-emerging Caliphate wither on the vine of the recent uprisings in the Arab World.
His death at the hands of US military may well provide closure to the many who suffered at his hands. And this is a good thing.
I am particularly glad that he lived long enough to see his dream of the re-emerging Caliphate wither on the vine of the recent uprisings in the Arab World.