British AH-64D's in Afghanistan
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AH-1Z would be a fairly useful bit of kit right now seeing as it's marinised and simpler/cheaper than AH-64.
Apache seems a bit overkill in comparison for fighting farmers/goat herders etc
Any Apaches that go out on Ocean will come back sh@gged with salt in every nook and cranny, more expense.....
Apache seems a bit overkill in comparison for fighting farmers/goat herders etc
Any Apaches that go out on Ocean will come back sh@gged with salt in every nook and cranny, more expense.....
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AH-1Z would be a fairly useful bit of kit right now seeing as it's marinised and simpler/cheaper than AH-64.
It's not that much simpler and probably not much cheaper.
DATE:20/12/10
SOURCE:Flight International
...
CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft
Initially envisioned as an effort to modernise the drive train of the US Marine Corps' (USMC) veteran fleet of Bell AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters, the AH-1Z Viper has essentially evolved into a new aircraft.
The helicopter, which was developed alongside its close cousin, the UH-1Y, is a significant technological leap over its predecessor. The new airframe offers increased aerodynamic performance and exponentially more sophisticated avionics. The service hopes to procure some 226 AH-1Zs, including 58 new-build airframes and 168 machines remanufactured from the AH-1W.
For the USMC, the appeal of the "Zulu" is focused on the logistical advantages of the UH-1Y/AH-1Z combination; there are those, however, who question the value of this arrangement.
...
"The H-1 programme originated largely because the Marines wanted to avoid ever taking any [Sikorsky] H-60s," says Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at the Teal Group, a Washington DC-based consultancy.
"Taking H-60s would have been enormously sensible in terms of costs, capabilities and intra-service commonality, but it would have jeopardised the [Bell Boeing] V-22 requirement, which was the Marines' highest priority," Aboulafia says.
Further, the US Army's Boeing AH-64D Apache, which is a direct competitor to the AH-1Z on the market, is arguably a superior attack platform.
...
CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft
It's not that much simpler and probably not much cheaper.
DATE:20/12/10
SOURCE:Flight International
...
CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft
Initially envisioned as an effort to modernise the drive train of the US Marine Corps' (USMC) veteran fleet of Bell AH-1W Super Cobra helicopters, the AH-1Z Viper has essentially evolved into a new aircraft.
The helicopter, which was developed alongside its close cousin, the UH-1Y, is a significant technological leap over its predecessor. The new airframe offers increased aerodynamic performance and exponentially more sophisticated avionics. The service hopes to procure some 226 AH-1Zs, including 58 new-build airframes and 168 machines remanufactured from the AH-1W.
For the USMC, the appeal of the "Zulu" is focused on the logistical advantages of the UH-1Y/AH-1Z combination; there are those, however, who question the value of this arrangement.
...
"The H-1 programme originated largely because the Marines wanted to avoid ever taking any [Sikorsky] H-60s," says Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at the Teal Group, a Washington DC-based consultancy.
"Taking H-60s would have been enormously sensible in terms of costs, capabilities and intra-service commonality, but it would have jeopardised the [Bell Boeing] V-22 requirement, which was the Marines' highest priority," Aboulafia says.
Further, the US Army's Boeing AH-64D Apache, which is a direct competitor to the AH-1Z on the market, is arguably a superior attack platform.
...
CUTAWAY: AH-1Z Viper enters production as substantially new aircraft
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Further, the US Army's Boeing AH-64D Apache, which is a direct competitor to the AH-1Z on the market, is arguably a superior attack platform.
The first time they upgraded the AH-1T into the AH-1W, and the second time the AH-1W into the AH-1Z.
Thread Starter
"The H-1 programme originated largely because the Marines wanted to avoid ever taking any [Sikorsky] H-60s," says Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at the Teal Group, a Washington DC-based consultancy.
"Taking H-60s would have been enormously sensible in terms of costs, capabilities and intra-service commonality, but it would have jeopardised the [Bell Boeing] V-22 requirement, which was the Marines' highest priority," Aboulafia says.
"Taking H-60s would have been enormously sensible in terms of costs, capabilities and intra-service commonality, but it would have jeopardised the [Bell Boeing] V-22 requirement, which was the Marines' highest priority," Aboulafia says.
The USMC would have wound up with no Bell's....and a fleet made up of UH-60's and Apaches.....and no MV-22.
Granted the US Navy would not have to modify LHA designs to accomodate the larger V-22 and do away with the Well Decks which render the new ships into catapault-less well deck-less mini-Carriers.
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Anyone with any Apache AH1 questions might like to know that Ed Macy is down to do a rare speaking engagement in London in June at the National Army Museum.
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Abouafia chose to over look deck multiple (you need 2.2 Blackhawks on deck to equal on CH-46 and about 2.0 to equal 1 V-22) in terms of moving people. I think his analysis is confined to the dollars and cents point of view. That said, I agree with his stated logistic side advantage, particularly given the Navy's "all Sikorsky" Helo Master Plan of the 90's. This "plan" has come mostly to fruition with the 53 and the various subspecies of Seahawk forming the core of Naval Helicopter assets.
The Huey and Cobra decisions are a bit more complex than Abouafia's brief summary there claims ... but he's on to something, and a pretty well informed industry analyst. I think he ought to have made more mention of the Boeing link ...
In re the amphib issue ... that may still have been done whether the V-22 was sustained as a program or not. Given that there is the F-35 VSTOL tossed into the equation (and the infamous "what does it do to our deck?" issue) LHA-6 might have been inevitable.
The Huey and Cobra decisions are a bit more complex than Abouafia's brief summary there claims ... but he's on to something, and a pretty well informed industry analyst. I think he ought to have made more mention of the Boeing link ...
In re the amphib issue ... that may still have been done whether the V-22 was sustained as a program or not. Given that there is the F-35 VSTOL tossed into the equation (and the infamous "what does it do to our deck?" issue) LHA-6 might have been inevitable.
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Actually, you would need 4 H-60s per MV-22... two to move the people the first half the distance, and two to move them the rest of the distance while the first two go back for more.
The MV-22 can move them in one shot, and make the full round trip in the time an H-60 takes to make one-half round trip.
The MV-22 can move them in one shot, and make the full round trip in the time an H-60 takes to make one-half round trip.
Thread Starter
For what a 22 costs....you could buy four 60's complete with the external armament and have a dual use transport/ground support aircraft, not have to "armor" the ship's landing deck, and maintain a 93-95 plus readiness rate.
SASless, dollar for dollar I believe you, but I think you know you can't buy the extra space on the gator. That is finite, regardless of how cheap or expensive your lift platforms are.
IIRC, the deck multiple on an Apache or a Zulu Cobra is close enough to "the same" to render any differential negligible. (This is an Apache/Attack helicopter thread, after all, even though weaponizing the Blackhawk isn't all that hard. Sikorsky has a variety of Blackhawk weaponization kits available for sale ... but none of them will approach the level of attack power an Apache of any sort will provide to you, and you won't get that fancy radar dingus on the Longbow ... )
The logic for sticking with the light lift and basically MG and rocket attack suite with the Yankee Huey, versus Blackhawk (Medium light?) has a reasonable logistic/commonality logic that (unless I recall incorrectly) is significantly better than the N / W commonality currently enjoyed.
What has that to do with WAH Apaches?
Not much, and given Afghanistan's land locked status, even less.
We should probably keep the V-22 banter over in that lovely V-22 thread in Rotorheads. 
IIRC, the deck multiple on an Apache or a Zulu Cobra is close enough to "the same" to render any differential negligible. (This is an Apache/Attack helicopter thread, after all, even though weaponizing the Blackhawk isn't all that hard. Sikorsky has a variety of Blackhawk weaponization kits available for sale ... but none of them will approach the level of attack power an Apache of any sort will provide to you, and you won't get that fancy radar dingus on the Longbow ... )
The logic for sticking with the light lift and basically MG and rocket attack suite with the Yankee Huey, versus Blackhawk (Medium light?) has a reasonable logistic/commonality logic that (unless I recall incorrectly) is significantly better than the N / W commonality currently enjoyed.
What has that to do with WAH Apaches?
Not much, and given Afghanistan's land locked status, even less.
We should probably keep the V-22 banter over in that lovely V-22 thread in Rotorheads.
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Some clarification on AH-64 details
Nomeclature for US AH-64 (in chronological order):
AH-64A - Only a few left in NG service
AH-64D Block I - NG and limited AD service
AH-64D Block II - Majority of AD service
AH-64D Block III - First fielding to AD unit in the near future
Nomeclature for US AH-64 (in chronological order):
AH-64A - Only a few left in NG service
AH-64D Block I - NG and limited AD service
AH-64D Block II - Majority of AD service
AH-64D Block III - First fielding to AD unit in the near future
Sas
4 60's for a V-22? Please work the numbers.
Turkey is paying $30M plus for their new 60's. So that makes it maybe 2 at best for a V-22.
If you bring up S-92's the Canadians are paying $100M+ (if they ever get them). A V-22 is a bargain there.
The Sultan
4 60's for a V-22? Please work the numbers.
Turkey is paying $30M plus for their new 60's. So that makes it maybe 2 at best for a V-22.
If you bring up S-92's the Canadians are paying $100M+ (if they ever get them). A V-22 is a bargain there.
The Sultan
Thread Starter
Unit prices depend generally upon numbers built....or older airframes available for rebuild to new specs. Thus Turkey and other small buy contracts are much more expensive. Add in initial spares stockage and unit price goes up on new buys. Needless to say....the US Military does business in volume with Sikorsky.
A V-22 can in no way be considered a "bargain"!
Combat necessity allowed the UH-60 to carry 24-25 fully equipped Soldiers in the Sand Box.....told to me first hand by crews that had done that. That is bang for the buck!
Cost figures I found were Six Million USD for L Models and Ten Million USD for Pavehawks.
Divide the latest Air Force CV-22 crash (Eighty-Four Million USD) by the Pavehawk price and I see an 8:1 ratio favoring Blackhwaks over Ospreys.
A V-22 can in no way be considered a "bargain"!
Combat necessity allowed the UH-60 to carry 24-25 fully equipped Soldiers in the Sand Box.....told to me first hand by crews that had done that. That is bang for the buck!
Cost figures I found were Six Million USD for L Models and Ten Million USD for Pavehawks.
Divide the latest Air Force CV-22 crash (Eighty-Four Million USD) by the Pavehawk price and I see an 8:1 ratio favoring Blackhwaks over Ospreys.
