EFT Worries
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Navigation worries..............
Wholigan is spot on. Give yourself and your Instructor the opportunity to talk through and solve the problem, tailored for you.
Your instructor will know it anyway, and will welcome the chance to help you.
Your instructor will know it anyway, and will welcome the chance to help you.
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Make use of Google maps or similar when doing route study prior to flying. Will help you learn to read the maps better & be able to visualise what features will look like. Also helps give you confidence & capacity when you hit turning points etc that you are at the right place.
Keep smiling!
SW
Keep smiling!
SW
Gentleman Aviator
And never be tempted to read "ground to map". Lots of stuff on the ground ain't on the map, but everything on the map (unless you really seriously lost!) is down there (as Lord Prescott said) on terra cotta. 
But do talk to the instructors ......
But do talk to the instructors ......
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Interesting the bit about talking to your instructor. When I went through BFTS (circa quite a long time ago) QFI's told you what was expected and then you were left to come up with the goods. If you didn't you were bollocked for not being resourceful and using your initiative. I.e. you were expected to be self reliant because, as a pilot, there's usually no one else to ask when you are in a sticky situation.
The idea of asking for 'help' seems more of a contemporary culture. Even ten (ish) years ago when I got my civvy jet command you were allowed a few weeks of grace when you could phone a manager and ask for advice. After that cooling off period you were expected to come up with the goods no questions answered.
Has the culture of flying training changed?
FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981
Vdeo FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981 en VIDEOS.es
The idea of asking for 'help' seems more of a contemporary culture. Even ten (ish) years ago when I got my civvy jet command you were allowed a few weeks of grace when you could phone a manager and ask for advice. After that cooling off period you were expected to come up with the goods no questions answered.
Has the culture of flying training changed?
FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981
Vdeo FIGHTER PILOT Landing Instruction - TV Series 1981 en VIDEOS.es
Red On, Green On
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RA
Google Earth has an overlay with controlled airspace here 
If on the other hand you are being serious, and somehow I think you are, then does google maps show all controlled airspace? No!
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Flap 62,
I think that the point being politely made was that:
was advice (not many of us would disagree with it - and already eloquently put by Wholigan) and everything above it in your post was unnecessary sniping. Of course you might describe it as banter but it missed the 'humor' bit slightly; or perhaps you were saying that only Harrier pilots are qualified to give advice...
I think that the point being politely made was that:
Ignore all the chaff and ask your instructors - that's what they're there for. If you still can't crack it keep going, if you then still can't crack it - give up. There's no point being a bloody fool about it.
was advice (not many of us would disagree with it - and already eloquently put by Wholigan) and everything above it in your post was unnecessary sniping. Of course you might describe it as banter but it missed the 'humor' bit slightly; or perhaps you were saying that only Harrier pilots are qualified to give advice...
Thread Starter
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Thanks for the good advice. As for asking the instructors, I'm right on that. Just seeing if there was any tips from the experienced aircrew among you lot.
As for the rather dubious posts that were just mocking me for asking advice I can only assume you are perfect aviators.
As for the rather dubious posts that were just mocking me for asking advice I can only assume you are perfect aviators.
Whilst it's fine to ask for advice, you're far better off actually speaking to the instructional staff.
Earlier I wrote that:
However, I'm grateful for having received a PM which stated:
Could someone at EFTS confirm that this latter statement is indeed correct and that the use of a navigation computer is still part of your ML navigation planning process these days?
I certainly hope that you use a nav computer (whether whizz-wheel or electronic) for pre-flight navigation planning.
Earlier I wrote that:
Since those days, I hear that the RAF doesn't even teach the use of a nav computer for pre-flight planning, but attempts to do so using MDR.
Students are taught at DEFTS and RAF EFTS how to use the Dalton Computer. They use it for all of their nav planning.
I certainly hope that you use a nav computer (whether whizz-wheel or electronic) for pre-flight navigation planning.
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at the mo it's all MDR which is fine but I've got a whiz wheel too from my PPL days.
I'm just very conscious of the current climate and lack of cockpits at the end of training. Good isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers lads and ladies
I'm just very conscious of the current climate and lack of cockpits at the end of training. Good isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned.
Cheers lads and ladies
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Slowlow the best piece of advice that anyone has given you on here is to ask the staff. I struggled at Nav during EFT and didn't ask for help in fear of losing marks at streaming. Sitting on the other side of the fence I can tell you it was complete hoop!
Use the techniques that you were taught at groundschool and have been taught during your Mass Brief. I would strongly suggest you do not use Google Earth as pre-flight route study nor would I rely on your whizz wheel, speaking from experience you wont always have them available. You are being assessed against common techniques and an approved marking guide.
Top marks for taking the initiative but are you really surprised at some of the comments offered? Don't fret over recent events, it really is back to work as normal. Don't make it worse by adding excessive self-induced pressure, as you said you're only a few nav trips in!
Good luck
Use the techniques that you were taught at groundschool and have been taught during your Mass Brief. I would strongly suggest you do not use Google Earth as pre-flight route study nor would I rely on your whizz wheel, speaking from experience you wont always have them available. You are being assessed against common techniques and an approved marking guide.
Top marks for taking the initiative but are you really surprised at some of the comments offered? Don't fret over recent events, it really is back to work as normal. Don't make it worse by adding excessive self-induced pressure, as you said you're only a few nav trips in!
Good luck
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Everybody offering good advice but it's mainly what works for them. Listen to Wholigan and c130jbloke's advice and talk to your QFI. They're not ALL out to get you and he should be sympathetic! After all, he's there to instruct!
Foldie
(A Nav)
Foldie
(A Nav)
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Way back when, I recall CinC Flying Training Command, (one Paddy Dunn) state that there was "no such thing as a bad student, only bad instructors". Still think it's a bit dubious!
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"no such thing as a bad student, only bad instructors". Still think it's a bit dubious!
There will always be the odd one getting through the net but they usually get their cumuppence sooner rather then later. Interestingly, it is usually the bad instructors who disagree with this statement.
The worst example I have come across was a fastball* 5pm briefing in which the instructor started the briefing with "Big boys rules, there will be no questions...Questions?" Either the course had colluded to save a course member or this was true, and happily the course member on review got to fly another day after being taught properly.
*Schedule change due to weather limitations on the following days weather forecast.
Dalton Computer
I am prepared for the inevitable lambasting that will shortly be sent my way but I really fail to see the point of the bloody thing!
I haven't used one since BFJT groundschool (the only time I used it before that was at EFT groundshcool!). It seems to me that it's a legacy piece of kit that exists purely so old school aviators can teach it's use to the new breed. I can't think of a use for it in my field (FJs) and I struggle to see how any other branch of the military aviation fraternity is using it in any meaningful sense. Some on this forum denigrate the use of MDR but I'd suggest it breeds just the type of pilots we're after. Guys who can think on their feet and who appreciate that you can't plan for every eventuality. Also, apart from during PPLs and private flying is it really used much in the civilian world (or does everyone take a Garmin flying with them on their cross-country trips)?
I know there will be plenty of folks on here who will talk with great reverence about the days when there was no GPS/INS/TERPROM to rely on but those days are now gone. There are barely any aircraft left with Navigators and those that have them don't really use them for navigating.
This all leads me to question the validity of the Dalton Computer in military aviation in toto.
I look forward to the collective repostes.
BV
I haven't used one since BFJT groundschool (the only time I used it before that was at EFT groundshcool!). It seems to me that it's a legacy piece of kit that exists purely so old school aviators can teach it's use to the new breed. I can't think of a use for it in my field (FJs) and I struggle to see how any other branch of the military aviation fraternity is using it in any meaningful sense. Some on this forum denigrate the use of MDR but I'd suggest it breeds just the type of pilots we're after. Guys who can think on their feet and who appreciate that you can't plan for every eventuality. Also, apart from during PPLs and private flying is it really used much in the civilian world (or does everyone take a Garmin flying with them on their cross-country trips)?
I know there will be plenty of folks on here who will talk with great reverence about the days when there was no GPS/INS/TERPROM to rely on but those days are now gone. There are barely any aircraft left with Navigators and those that have them don't really use them for navigating.
This all leads me to question the validity of the Dalton Computer in military aviation in toto.
I look forward to the collective repostes.
BV
Bob, whilst MDR is excellent for many things, it is inadequate for pre-flight navigation planning. OK, you can assess the drift and obtain a heading, but you cannot calculate a sufficiently accurate groundspeed for low-performance puddlejumpers whose GS is vastly more affected by the wind at medium levels than is the GS of a FJ is at low level. Or at least you can't unless you use some pointlessly complicated fractions of miles per minute. Whereas a 20 kt surface wind makes bugger all difference to a FJ (or even that Brazilian POS which replaced the JP5...), the same wind will be stronger and have a significantly greater effect on a Plastic Pig lumbering along at 120KIAS at 2000 ft....
By the time most people have gone through the mental gymnastics to use MDR for pre-flight planning, they could just as easily have done some accurate planning with a navigation computer.
I don't view the Dalton per se as being mandatory - an electronic nav computer is much better as it is quicker. But I do believe in reducing the sources of pre-flight planning errors to the practical minimum, where possible, so that in-flight correction should become simpler.
By the time most people have gone through the mental gymnastics to use MDR for pre-flight planning, they could just as easily have done some accurate planning with a navigation computer.
I don't view the Dalton per se as being mandatory - an electronic nav computer is much better as it is quicker. But I do believe in reducing the sources of pre-flight planning errors to the practical minimum, where possible, so that in-flight correction should become simpler.
Slowlow - No real advice from me, but just a word of sympathy. I was a nav a long time ago and ended up with just shy of 2000 hours in my logbook - nothing to shout about, but just enough to say I wasn't a complete novice at the black art.
Anyway a few years back I started a PPL. Everyone knew I was an ex nav and used to say "of course, the nav side will be easy for you". Well I soon learned there was a world of difference between navigating on a nice steady table with a pilot(s) flying the aircraft for me, and doing it on a folded map while trying to keep on altitude and heading at the same time. Easy it wasnt! Anyway I got through the nav stage ok, and I am sure you will, so all I can say is good luck!
Anyway a few years back I started a PPL. Everyone knew I was an ex nav and used to say "of course, the nav side will be easy for you". Well I soon learned there was a world of difference between navigating on a nice steady table with a pilot(s) flying the aircraft for me, and doing it on a folded map while trying to keep on altitude and heading at the same time. Easy it wasnt! Anyway I got through the nav stage ok, and I am sure you will, so all I can say is good luck!
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Beags, pray tell: which offers the greatest and most likely source of inaccuracy, the use of approximations and MDR whilst flying at 120KIAS and below, or the vague and unhelpful area forecasts of ML winds offered by the Met Office?
I know which method I'd rather use, and not just at 420KIAS. After all, what good is a wonderfully accurate delicately winded map with everything whizzwheeled into oblivion if the met forecast (for an area of 40nm radius) is rounded up to the nearest five knots anyway?
Incidentally, MDR worked perfectly well and enabled me to tour Northern Europe in a light aircraft without incident; similarly the techniques have passed muster with several civilian FIs and FEs, most of whom were impressed rather than shocked at the lack of whizz wheel buffoonery pre-flight.
I know which method I'd rather use, and not just at 420KIAS. After all, what good is a wonderfully accurate delicately winded map with everything whizzwheeled into oblivion if the met forecast (for an area of 40nm radius) is rounded up to the nearest five knots anyway?
Incidentally, MDR worked perfectly well and enabled me to tour Northern Europe in a light aircraft without incident; similarly the techniques have passed muster with several civilian FIs and FEs, most of whom were impressed rather than shocked at the lack of whizz wheel buffoonery pre-flight.