Bring Back the Carrier
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Bring Back the Carrier
I told them this would happen
Libya: Tory MP David Davis urges UK defence rethink
"The crisis in Libya should prompt an immediate reversal of cuts to the defence budget, a senior Tory MP says.
David Davis said he supported calls for a no-fly zone in Libya as there was an "obvious" moral case for action.
But he said defence cuts, such as axing the Ark Royal aircraft carrier and Harrier jets, would make this more difficult and they should be reversed."
BBC News - Libya: Tory MP David Davis urges UK defence rethink.
Libya: Tory MP David Davis urges UK defence rethink
"The crisis in Libya should prompt an immediate reversal of cuts to the defence budget, a senior Tory MP says.
David Davis said he supported calls for a no-fly zone in Libya as there was an "obvious" moral case for action.
But he said defence cuts, such as axing the Ark Royal aircraft carrier and Harrier jets, would make this more difficult and they should be reversed."
BBC News - Libya: Tory MP David Davis urges UK defence rethink.
Haven't we covered this?
If he was talking FA2, then yes.
More political bolleaux.
"If we are serious about enforcing a no-fly zone over Libya, we must recognise that decommissioning the Ark Royal and the Harriers removes from Britain's armour the most effective way of doing it. They should be restored to active service immediately."
More political bolleaux.
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If he was talking FA2, then yes
-normally I'd be jumping up & down and agreeing, the loss of the FA2 ( and not even going for Harrier 2+ which with the great benefit of 20/20 hindsight would have been the way to go ), was catastrophic, and it could well be said paved the way towards binning the FAA - AGAIN, doesn't anyone read history ?!
- Oh, ok you'll be out out of office before anything nasty happens, Ta for serving our country...
But for the Libyan excursion, if it comes to that, the chaps in white hats will have a lot of cover, and minimal A-A- threats, while it seems like requiring accurate A-G weapon delivery - can anyone suggest a better combination than GR9's & Ark Royal / Illustrious ?!
Answers mentioning the U.S. go for consideration in File 13...
-normally I'd be jumping up & down and agreeing, the loss of the FA2 ( and not even going for Harrier 2+ which with the great benefit of 20/20 hindsight would have been the way to go ), was catastrophic, and it could well be said paved the way towards binning the FAA - AGAIN, doesn't anyone read history ?!
- Oh, ok you'll be out out of office before anything nasty happens, Ta for serving our country...
But for the Libyan excursion, if it comes to that, the chaps in white hats will have a lot of cover, and minimal A-A- threats, while it seems like requiring accurate A-G weapon delivery - can anyone suggest a better combination than GR9's & Ark Royal / Illustrious ?!
Answers mentioning the U.S. go for consideration in File 13...
can anyone suggest a better combination than GR9's & Ark Royal / Illustrious
Why not keep it to the art of the possible rather than fantasy? In this case the UK Fast Air contribution can only be the Typhoon. If you want carrier air then its the USN or the French. The quicker everyone accepts we are where we are and cuts their cloth accordingly the better. Let the EU/NATO non-swimmers deal with this one.
And whilst there may not be a significant surface AAA threat I would suggest there may be an air to air threat (perhaps not for very long ....
). Having said all that leave it much longer (end of next week?) and the need for a NFZ will have gone. Which is why I suspect there seems to be endless talk and no action. DC is probably hoping nobody calls his bluff ..... 'cause he could end up with egg on his face.
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RN could contribute some ASaC7s and RAF some tanking.
The Italians, Maltese and Greeks (Crete) make their tarmac available, and the French/Septics produce the pointy-jets.
The Italians, Maltese and Greeks (Crete) make their tarmac available, and the French/Septics produce the pointy-jets.
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Ark Royal is not available and neither is Illustrious as she is in refit until the Summer. Ocean could fly off ASaC7's if they were needed and time to deploy her was available.
Would Malta offer HNS as a non-allinged Country (especially with the Colonel still in power) or Greece for that matter unless any NFZ is UN agreed?
How many pointy jets does the Aeronavale have? Will Italy become involved? Is the US more bothered about Iran and Bahrain?
Other than posturing can the UK/France actually do anything pdq? Should we?
Would Malta offer HNS as a non-allinged Country (especially with the Colonel still in power) or Greece for that matter unless any NFZ is UN agreed?
How many pointy jets does the Aeronavale have? Will Italy become involved? Is the US more bothered about Iran and Bahrain?
Other than posturing can the UK/France actually do anything pdq? Should we?
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Greece for that matter unless any NFZ is UN agreed?
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A NFZ in Libya doesn't need a carrier; there are plenty of NATO fixed wing bases within easy range, particularly tanked. The Balkans ops required far longer sortie durations than would be needed for this one.
What is needed is a flexibility of platforms giving SEAD and AD capability. We seem to be short of the former and, had you checked the Forum 6 moths ago, we, apparently, didn't need a Typhoon to provide the latter.
The next issue is numbers. If we keep reducing Typhoon force levels at recent rates we may be able to provide a sqn if we're lucky.
I trust those short sighted individuals at all levels are taking note.
What is needed is a flexibility of platforms giving SEAD and AD capability. We seem to be short of the former and, had you checked the Forum 6 moths ago, we, apparently, didn't need a Typhoon to provide the latter.
The next issue is numbers. If we keep reducing Typhoon force levels at recent rates we may be able to provide a sqn if we're lucky.
I trust those short sighted individuals at all levels are taking note.
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I have seen it suggested that the Greek financial demise was contributed to in some measure by the losses incurred by their staging of the Athens Olympics. In that case we have much to look forward to after our probable losses in 2012.
What complete rubbish. How much simpler could this be? Sigonella is a skip and a jump away, even Cyprus isnt so bad even if it is a little further. Why on Earth is this being used as an argument for carriers? If Malta were to offer ramp space (far side of Luqa, there's probably a few left in the RAF who might remember where to park!) then even better. There's no such thing as a Non Aligned Movement these days, so so it's more to do with being an influential member of the EU and I'm sure Malta wouldn't mind helping out if it means EU support for the potential influx of migrants from N Africa.
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MG
Now that a Resolution has been passed we will be able to see what happens in practice over Libya. Remember that this is to achieve something above a country that is on our doorstep in comparison to others where UK interests could be at threat in coming years.
Your response too readily assumes that HNS and friendly bases will always be made available and chooses to simply ignore one country's inconvenient but actual current political stance.
Now that a Resolution has been passed we will be able to see what happens in practice over Libya. Remember that this is to achieve something above a country that is on our doorstep in comparison to others where UK interests could be at threat in coming years.
Your response too readily assumes that HNS and friendly bases will always be made available and chooses to simply ignore one country's inconvenient but actual current political stance.
No, I'm talking about this situation and only this one. To use the carrier argument based upon this scenario is to ask for it to be shot down, if you'll forgive the pun. Use the argument in a far reaching, Falklands-type scenario if you want it to demonstrate the parlous state of UK defence policy.
I actually fully support the idea (though perhaps not the over-inflated cost) of a conventional carrier but the Harrier/Ark Royal argument is over, it's moved on.
I actually fully support the idea (though perhaps not the over-inflated cost) of a conventional carrier but the Harrier/Ark Royal argument is over, it's moved on.
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MG
Lets not get fixated on the Harrier Carrier issue. Even with the Libya NFZ the assets that the UK can offer are determined by proximity to a friendly land base. For example we cannot deply helo's such as Apache, a pretty useful option for stopping tanks and other AFVs'.
One of the Ark's final ops was to deploy Apache as part of her Tailored Air Group. This requirement was identified in the 1997 Defence Review but downplayed in last years SDSR which looks more odd with each passing day
Lets not get fixated on the Harrier Carrier issue. Even with the Libya NFZ the assets that the UK can offer are determined by proximity to a friendly land base. For example we cannot deply helo's such as Apache, a pretty useful option for stopping tanks and other AFVs'.
One of the Ark's final ops was to deploy Apache as part of her Tailored Air Group. This requirement was identified in the 1997 Defence Review but downplayed in last years SDSR which looks more odd with each passing day
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The PM has just answered a question on this very subject, when asked if he might reconsider the decision to scrap SHAR etc he said quite simply there was no need to, no one else is sending carriers to the area so why should we.
He does have a very valid point
He does have a very valid point
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Are we absolutely sure no-one is sending carriers? I will bet anyone (PM if necessary) my salary that sea based fixed wing is either there already or will be within a week.
If you're not brave enough to go for the salary, how about a pint?
Harrier and carrier are not coming back - but that doesn't mean everyone else is quite so short sighted.
If you're not brave enough to go for the salary, how about a pint?
Harrier and carrier are not coming back - but that doesn't mean everyone else is quite so short sighted.
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no problem they are being deployed to LIBYA lol.....
UK fighter jets deployed to Libya - UK News - MSN News UK
one would think they could tell the press could difference between a no fly zone and actually being deployed to the country...... bet that will suprise the Libyan Air Force to see several Tiffies taxying in
UK fighter jets deployed to Libya - UK News - MSN News UK
one would think they could tell the press could difference between a no fly zone and actually being deployed to the country...... bet that will suprise the Libyan Air Force to see several Tiffies taxying in