The Forces and the future?
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Devon
Age: 71
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The main problem with this country now is that nobody outside our Armed Forces (?) gives a toss about the defence of this country , their heads are full of cr@p such as "I wonder how Cheryl Cole will have her false hair done this week or isn't Wayne Rooney a lovely chap ? or I can't wait for the next series of X Factor to start , nobody bats an eyelid that 2 weeks of sports next year are ONLY costing us around £14bn !
It's about time we got our priorities right & looked after the defence & security of this country properly , I hope we don't drop a big bo@*ock & live (hopefully) not to regret getting rid of all our valuable military assets so quickly . There , I've said that , now I'll have to go into a darkened room to calm down !
It's about time we got our priorities right & looked after the defence & security of this country properly , I hope we don't drop a big bo@*ock & live (hopefully) not to regret getting rid of all our valuable military assets so quickly . There , I've said that , now I'll have to go into a darkened room to calm down !
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Down West
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Grandfer,
Judging by the moans about the fitness test on this forum no-one here would give a second thought to us not hosting the Olympics. Cornwall won't see the benefit, neither will most places other than London. We could have saved billions by utilising existing sporting venues across the country, sharing the benefits in an austere time instead of centralising everything.
Stay angry, it shows you care!
Judging by the moans about the fitness test on this forum no-one here would give a second thought to us not hosting the Olympics. Cornwall won't see the benefit, neither will most places other than London. We could have saved billions by utilising existing sporting venues across the country, sharing the benefits in an austere time instead of centralising everything.
Stay angry, it shows you care!
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Judging by the moans about the fitness test on this forum no-one here would give a second thought to us not hosting the Olympics.
Well, with the massive MoD overspend and deficit that ministers keep banging on about, perhaps Mod should take a leaf from the Oz book. Mark Thomson, who's a director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, said today
The 'plane purchase' he refers to is the unexpected order 3 days ago for a fifth C-17, cost reportedly $230million. Wouldn't that sort of money be nice on the Brit end of the antipodes....
airsound
[Australian] Defence had significantly underspent because of continuing bungles with materiel supply contracts in the current financial year.
The four biggest culprits, which have a total underspend of $564 million between them are the Airborne Early Warning Aircraft, the Air Warfare Destroyer program, the Multi-Role Helicopter project and the Air-to-Air Refuelling Capability program.
''Because suppliers haven't done the job, Defence is not paying them as you would expect,'' Mr Thomson said yesterday.
''That has left it with a whole lot of investment cash in its pocket. The combination of the two factors - the underspend and the plane purchase help them [Defence] alleviate their embarrassment of riches.''
The four biggest culprits, which have a total underspend of $564 million between them are the Airborne Early Warning Aircraft, the Air Warfare Destroyer program, the Multi-Role Helicopter project and the Air-to-Air Refuelling Capability program.
''Because suppliers haven't done the job, Defence is not paying them as you would expect,'' Mr Thomson said yesterday.
''That has left it with a whole lot of investment cash in its pocket. The combination of the two factors - the underspend and the plane purchase help them [Defence] alleviate their embarrassment of riches.''
airsound
Plastic PPRuNer
Eurofighter Typhoon: It's EVEN WORSE than we thought
What other countries think
Halton Brat,
I have no business posting here but I can contribute a small point since I come from outside the UK. Perhaps it will be helpful. You said: "...does any other nation now care what we think?"
The answer is a big mixed bag of yes and nos. You can ensure that it is 100% no by continuing to talk yourselves down.
Britain is envied and admired and hated and often the same person feels all three emotions. It has impacted many countries and British ideas are running around conflicting with more traditional ideas and generating the same feelings as when there was an Empire. There doesn't need to be any British person about for this to cause trouble.
There are also benefits because despite the non-existence of empire, there are people who look to Britain as a model or a way of getting society right. They listen to the World Service way out in the middle of nowhere and are reminded what civilisation is and what they stand for themselves. They put their money in British banks if they have any because they trust you.
Nobody respects what British politicians say since they get kicked out of office quite regularly and will do anything to prolong their stay.
Everyone knows that British people want to be liked and respected and feel that they are good people and can be duped into supporting crooks because of this. They think British people are naieve. This is something of an attraction as well as being frustrating.
When Britain does things like the Falklands or Iraq or Afghanistan, loads of sometime scummy, sometimes merely left wing people complain loudly. In the end though, anger is the greatest form of respect that many have to offer. Before Britain is reviled for taking action, it is considered pathetic for being passive. You can't be liked - mostly the choice is between hated, indifferent, derided with the tiniest sliver of "respected" in there somewhere by a very few people.
I think that even though they are the tremendous minority it's more satisfying to try live up to the expectations of the very few who will respect you.
It's pretty easy to do this in a way: don't betray your allies or your own citizens at any cost.
Regards.
I have no business posting here but I can contribute a small point since I come from outside the UK. Perhaps it will be helpful. You said: "...does any other nation now care what we think?"
The answer is a big mixed bag of yes and nos. You can ensure that it is 100% no by continuing to talk yourselves down.
Britain is envied and admired and hated and often the same person feels all three emotions. It has impacted many countries and British ideas are running around conflicting with more traditional ideas and generating the same feelings as when there was an Empire. There doesn't need to be any British person about for this to cause trouble.
There are also benefits because despite the non-existence of empire, there are people who look to Britain as a model or a way of getting society right. They listen to the World Service way out in the middle of nowhere and are reminded what civilisation is and what they stand for themselves. They put their money in British banks if they have any because they trust you.
Nobody respects what British politicians say since they get kicked out of office quite regularly and will do anything to prolong their stay.
Everyone knows that British people want to be liked and respected and feel that they are good people and can be duped into supporting crooks because of this. They think British people are naieve. This is something of an attraction as well as being frustrating.
When Britain does things like the Falklands or Iraq or Afghanistan, loads of sometime scummy, sometimes merely left wing people complain loudly. In the end though, anger is the greatest form of respect that many have to offer. Before Britain is reviled for taking action, it is considered pathetic for being passive. You can't be liked - mostly the choice is between hated, indifferent, derided with the tiniest sliver of "respected" in there somewhere by a very few people.
I think that even though they are the tremendous minority it's more satisfying to try live up to the expectations of the very few who will respect you.
It's pretty easy to do this in a way: don't betray your allies or your own citizens at any cost.
Regards.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France 46
Age: 77
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have just taken one of my heresy pills so I take no responsibility for what follows.
I joined the RAF as a Student Pilot in 1965 and I did my Basic Training on Jet Provosts at RAF Acklington. At this time the RAF had some 300 Jet Provosts equipping 6 Basic FTS's as well as CFS and the School of Refresher Flying. In addition there were in excess of 100 Gnat Advance Trainers for "Fast Jet" training.
In 1968 whilst serving in the Gulf I met up with my BFTS Instructor who was serving "On Loan" with the Sultan of Oman's Forces flying "Strikemasters" which were at that time basically Mk 4 JP's with Guns and Weapon points. These proved very effective in the counter insurgency role.
There was, as far as I am aware, no plan whatsoever to prepare those 400 Training Aircraft for any support role in the event of hostilities - in contrast to the plans of 1940 when Invasion was a real threat. The scenario for a war in Europe in the 1960's was that it would be short and sharp with NATO defending against a Warsaw Pact invasion. I thought then, and I think now, that some 400 light attack aircraft could have made a difference and if you couple that with similar aircraft from the other NATO nations it could have made a significant difference to NATO's chances of success.
Still today the Training fleet is separate from the front line - but without the potential to be converted to even the most basic form of ground attack aircraft.
In these times of Financial Constraints perhaps it is time to reconsider our options.
I joined the RAF as a Student Pilot in 1965 and I did my Basic Training on Jet Provosts at RAF Acklington. At this time the RAF had some 300 Jet Provosts equipping 6 Basic FTS's as well as CFS and the School of Refresher Flying. In addition there were in excess of 100 Gnat Advance Trainers for "Fast Jet" training.
In 1968 whilst serving in the Gulf I met up with my BFTS Instructor who was serving "On Loan" with the Sultan of Oman's Forces flying "Strikemasters" which were at that time basically Mk 4 JP's with Guns and Weapon points. These proved very effective in the counter insurgency role.
There was, as far as I am aware, no plan whatsoever to prepare those 400 Training Aircraft for any support role in the event of hostilities - in contrast to the plans of 1940 when Invasion was a real threat. The scenario for a war in Europe in the 1960's was that it would be short and sharp with NATO defending against a Warsaw Pact invasion. I thought then, and I think now, that some 400 light attack aircraft could have made a difference and if you couple that with similar aircraft from the other NATO nations it could have made a significant difference to NATO's chances of success.
Still today the Training fleet is separate from the front line - but without the potential to be converted to even the most basic form of ground attack aircraft.
In these times of Financial Constraints perhaps it is time to reconsider our options.
Mk 4 JP's with Guns and Weapon points
In 1939 there was no plans to arm Tiger Moths or Harvards.
Re grandfer
Not everyone who is outside the armed forces is interested in Cheryl Cole, Jordan, X Factor etc etc. - I hate these "celebrities" and reality programmes.
It makes me really angry when I hear or read about what the politicians are doing to our armed forces I fear for the future.
I am in a minority but some of us "civvies" do care and are fully supportive of our servicemen and women so please assume all civilians don't care (although a good percentage don't care about anything)
Not everyone who is outside the armed forces is interested in Cheryl Cole, Jordan, X Factor etc etc. - I hate these "celebrities" and reality programmes.
It makes me really angry when I hear or read about what the politicians are doing to our armed forces I fear for the future.
I am in a minority but some of us "civvies" do care and are fully supportive of our servicemen and women so please assume all civilians don't care (although a good percentage don't care about anything)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France 46
Age: 77
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fareastdriver
The Jet Provost Mk 3 and 4 production ceased in 1964 by which time the RAF had received more than 300 aircraft. The Jet Provost Mk 5 did not enter RAF Service until 1969 with orders for more than 150 aircraft. That was after the events I described and the aircraft were new build.
The RAF also had more than 100 Gnat trainers with supersonic capability. I seem to remember IAF Gnat Fighters giving a good account of themselves against Pakistan AF Sabres in one of their frequent Wars in the '70s.
The Jet Provost Mk 3 and 4 production ceased in 1964 by which time the RAF had received more than 300 aircraft. The Jet Provost Mk 5 did not enter RAF Service until 1969 with orders for more than 150 aircraft. That was after the events I described and the aircraft were new build.
The RAF also had more than 100 Gnat trainers with supersonic capability. I seem to remember IAF Gnat Fighters giving a good account of themselves against Pakistan AF Sabres in one of their frequent Wars in the '70s.
Last edited by cazatou; 4th Mar 2011 at 08:05.
£38 billion overspend says it all for me.
We are back to the kid in the sweet shop who is pretending to be an athlete, but in reality cannot move as fast or as effectively as the smaller more nimble kids. And the fat kid is taking others money to squander more. Thats not to say you wouldn't want to be on the side of the fat kid in a fight
This is not to say our troops are not the best in the world, but they are poorly let down by both the procurement chaps and also their own ability to deliver to time and cost. Quality is not in doubt too often.
Depending upon which list you read, we are the 7th or 8th largest GDP country in the world. but have the third largest defence expenditure. Thats not 'punching above our weight'. That is not maintaining an empire, but is fighting against reality.
We spend 2.5% of GDP on defence, and I thought that the NATO base limit was much lower than that - nearer 2% or below - perhaps someone can clarify.
Like adherence to EU Legislation, we seem to go too far as its the British thing to do, when all the others are doing the absolute minimum and getting better value for money in keeping their 'Empire'.
We are back to the kid in the sweet shop who is pretending to be an athlete, but in reality cannot move as fast or as effectively as the smaller more nimble kids. And the fat kid is taking others money to squander more. Thats not to say you wouldn't want to be on the side of the fat kid in a fight
This is not to say our troops are not the best in the world, but they are poorly let down by both the procurement chaps and also their own ability to deliver to time and cost. Quality is not in doubt too often.
Depending upon which list you read, we are the 7th or 8th largest GDP country in the world. but have the third largest defence expenditure. Thats not 'punching above our weight'. That is not maintaining an empire, but is fighting against reality.
We spend 2.5% of GDP on defence, and I thought that the NATO base limit was much lower than that - nearer 2% or below - perhaps someone can clarify.
Like adherence to EU Legislation, we seem to go too far as its the British thing to do, when all the others are doing the absolute minimum and getting better value for money in keeping their 'Empire'.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Undershoot
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
£40 Bn where does it go?
Do we stand any chance?
MPs' Expenses,
MP's as board memebers for companies with vested intersests,
Even the London School of Ecomomics is in on it!
MPs' Expenses,
MP's as board memebers for companies with vested intersests,
Even the London School of Ecomomics is in on it!
Originally Posted by cazatou
Still today the Training fleet is separate from the front line - but without the potential to be converted to even the most basic form of ground attack aircraft.
In these times of Financial Constraints perhaps it is time to reconsider our options.
In these times of Financial Constraints perhaps it is time to reconsider our options.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: France 46
Age: 77
Posts: 1,743
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jaj
True, but nobody in their right mind would fly a Heavy Bomber at 60ft at night directly towards a defended target (whilst showing lights) and try to bounce their bombs across the water towards the target - would they?
True, but nobody in their right mind would fly a Heavy Bomber at 60ft at night directly towards a defended target (whilst showing lights) and try to bounce their bombs across the water towards the target - would they?
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cloud9
Posts: 365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What other countries think
t43562
Thank you for your considered response to my original post.
Like you, I view the UK from an external perspective; I am based in mainland Europe & have spent 15 of the past 25yrs thus.
On my visits to the UK, I am struck by the decline of standards in many aspects of UK life. This is evident in a broad area of the spectrum; social/moral/educational/political/economic (thread drift alert).
Whilst I do not view the past through rose-tinted optical aids, I mourn the passing of what once put the 'Great' in Great Britain. The present decimation of the nation's defences, in an increasingly perilous world, are but one symptom of this decline.
Best regards
Halton Brat
Thank you for your considered response to my original post.
Like you, I view the UK from an external perspective; I am based in mainland Europe & have spent 15 of the past 25yrs thus.
On my visits to the UK, I am struck by the decline of standards in many aspects of UK life. This is evident in a broad area of the spectrum; social/moral/educational/political/economic (thread drift alert).
Whilst I do not view the past through rose-tinted optical aids, I mourn the passing of what once put the 'Great' in Great Britain. The present decimation of the nation's defences, in an increasingly perilous world, are but one symptom of this decline.
Best regards
Halton Brat
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cloud9
Posts: 365
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Navy Adversary,
You are clearly an impertinent Colonial.
I intend to petition Her Most Gracious Majesty to dispatch a Gunboat forthwith to the New World, in order to retake those Settlements which had the temerity to defy the lawful writ of the Crown.
Arm yourself, Sir.
HB
You are clearly an impertinent Colonial.
I intend to petition Her Most Gracious Majesty to dispatch a Gunboat forthwith to the New World, in order to retake those Settlements which had the temerity to defy the lawful writ of the Crown.
Arm yourself, Sir.
HB
Last edited by Halton Brat; 4th Mar 2011 at 11:11.