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Boeing win $35Bn AAR contract

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Boeing win $35Bn AAR contract

Old 24th Feb 2011, 22:15
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Boeing win $35Bn AAR contract

BBC news just mentioned Boeing has won the $35Bn contract to supply the next generation of AAR aircraft for the USAF.
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 22:33
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Well did anyone doubt a different outcome ?!
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 22:34
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Let's hope this finally results in building the tankers. Ten years is way too long to get it going.
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:02
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Boeing Receives USAF Contract to Build Next-Generation Refueling Tanker

The contract calls for Boeing to design, develop, manufacture and deliver 18 initial combat-ready tankers by 2017.
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:08
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Wow never figured that would happen.

Boeing getting the contract.................who knew
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:11
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Amazing! Who'd have thought that Boeing would win the contract.....?
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:16
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Actually the rumors around the company for the last couple of months were that Boeing was not going to win this contract.
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:26
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combat-ready
Looking forward to seeing what they look like and what they're armed with.
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:40
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I guess at this stage a European victory was simply unacceptable.

I saw it in 2008 when the rules of the game were changed, deleting the value of additional capabilities, steering the deal to the aircraft meeting the minimal requirements (=767 capabilities) at minimal costs.
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:44
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Looking forward to seeing what they look like and what they're armed with


More seriously are we looking for an improved 767 or something completely new ? I guess that the plastic 787 will not make a safe tanker...
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:50
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The 787 would be too high a risk at this point, since it is not yet in production. The 767 tanker does exist, albeit in a different configuration. While some people say the new configuration is a high risk, Boeing has shown the ability to "cut & paste" wings, fuselage, cockpit, and software in the 737 series.

Another part of the decision that bodes well for those who use it is that less cost per airframe means more hoses in the air. That is what limits the tactical utility of the airborne tanker in these days, NOT the total amount of fuel available. There is only so much fuel flow available to tactical jets, and there are not a lot of B-52s needing tankers any more...
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Old 24th Feb 2011, 23:56
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Could be the saviour of the F38 vertical engine development, provided there's enough time available to produce six off sets!! - not too certain about the stealth aspects though - has Boeing been stealthy in the past?
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 00:08
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I wonder whether, assuming all other things being equal, this was compensation to GE for the F-35 second engine cancellation.

The Pentagon said Boeing was about 1% cheaper than EADS, so if compared purely on capability, I cannot see how the KC-767 is a better solution than the KC-45...

One must also question whether Boeing has sufficient engineering resources to bring the KC-767, 787-9, 787-10, updated 777, AND 737 replacement all on line in time in the next decade. It couldn't do the 787-8, 787-3 and 747-8 concurrently (only one of which was an all-new model, the other two being derivatives) - the 783 was canned, the 788 is 3.5 years late, and the 748 is 18 months late.
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 00:11
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I think Boeing will spend some money now to convince everybody this is NOT a political decision, starting today.
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 01:55
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lets think about it. 767 was the first twin jet to do the atlantic. it has a long good history.

I can't think of any thunderstorm related crashes for this type. I do remember the inadvertent thrust reverser deployment tragedy.

While the Airbus might be a bit more efficent...its all about combat capability and reliability.

So, how come France, Germany, Spain, and England don't buy the airbus as a tanker?
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 02:16
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I believe this decision was inevitable, the most tactically capable, and, most importantly, reliable on-task performance, won the day.
There appears to be not much difference between the manufacturing cost per airframe, but considerable difference in the operating costs per airframe.
also...
quote - "Another part of the decision that bodes well for those who use it is that less cost per airframe means more hoses in the air. That is what limits the tactical utility of the airborne tanker in these days, NOT the total amount of fuel available. There is only so much fuel flow available to tactical jets, and there are not a lot of B-52s needing tankers any more..."

errr...from FoxtrotAlpha18..quote.."The Pentagon said Boeing was about 1% cheaper than EADS, so if compared purely on capability, I cannot see how the KC-767 is a better solution than the KC-45..."

I think the experts (and blind freddy) could see the better solution.

Simply put they need a tactically capable, reliable tanker.
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 02:59
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So, how come France, Germany, Spain, and England don't buy the airbus as a tanker?
The UK has bought it (well, leased it - FSTA), Germany already has newish A310s, Spain has 707s, and France has KC-135Fs. France will probably buy it, and Spain might if it can find the money.

...most tactically capable, and, most importantly, reliable on-task performance, won the day...


And upon what do you base your assessment EW? What about risk - development nearly completed vs paper airplane, Boeing's engineering capacity? Any comments there?

Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 25th Feb 2011 at 03:18.
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 04:21
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I doubt GE would see this as compensation - when they were part of the EADS bid and Boeing are proposing P&Ws.

And it doesn't matter how many hoses you put in the sky if you can't use them - just ask the Italians.
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 06:03
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Fair call D-IFF...my bad on that one.
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Old 25th Feb 2011, 06:55
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Actually, the USAF said the total life-time program cost differential was GREATER than 1%... which, according to the rules of this iteration of the contest, meant that capability above the minimum required was NOT to be considered.

Apparently, Boeing's operational costs were enough lower than EADS' to compensate for the higher initial development cost by more than 1% overall.

There were always going to be 4 developmental aircraft and 175 production aircraft no matter which aircraft won.

I doubt that running costs would have played much role in "how many hoses are in the air" on any given day... reliability and "mission capable availability rates" rule that equation.
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