The future of UK SAR post SAR-H
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The future of UK SAR post SAR-H
Your thoughts on the best way forward Gentlemen; Sea King LEP, S92/NH90 COMO/COMR, CivSAR...
I'll start the ball rolling.
All that money HMG were going to spend trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, i.e. Puma2. Instead spend that on the Sea King, Junglie and SAR, to see the venerable old lady through to an OSD of 2020-30. Then the Dark Blue wouldn't be cutting up rough about the Light Blue's Merlins either.
I'll start the ball rolling.
All that money HMG were going to spend trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, i.e. Puma2. Instead spend that on the Sea King, Junglie and SAR, to see the venerable old lady through to an OSD of 2020-30. Then the Dark Blue wouldn't be cutting up rough about the Light Blue's Merlins either.
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£300 million for Puma 2 is peanuts compared to what we would have paid for SAR-H. Personally I think we would have been better off paying a wee bit more for new Super Pumas or even Blackhawks but we're too far down the road now so let's get the best value for money for that investment.
Meanwhile, let's forget about poor vfm PFI contracts. Why not cobble together any spare grey Merlins, the ex-Danish Mk 3As and a slack handful of Mk3s to constitute a new SAR Force, manned by whatever combination of RN, RAF and CG/civvy. It sounds like a bit of a b@stard fleet but that shouldn't be too much of an issue when you parcel them out into detached flights. Whatever number of Mk 3s are left over after that can constitute the future CHF. That's a redistribution of assets that we already own with little additional investment to prep the cabs for the SAR role.
Theoretically that still leaves the previously quoted £6 Billion for SAR-H to raid to pay for x-number of new Chinooks to bolster the future RAF SH Force.
If you want to save even more money then delete Army Wildcat. The Pre-SDSR rhetoric was all about dropping so-called Cold War equipment. Why then are we spending £1 Billion on an aircraft that is only good for targetting units of the 3rd Soviet Shock Army as it pours through the Fulda Gap, a job that the Apache can already do perfectly well for itself, thank you very much.
Do we still have GEMS? I'm sure I'm worth a few quid for that little lot....
Meanwhile, let's forget about poor vfm PFI contracts. Why not cobble together any spare grey Merlins, the ex-Danish Mk 3As and a slack handful of Mk3s to constitute a new SAR Force, manned by whatever combination of RN, RAF and CG/civvy. It sounds like a bit of a b@stard fleet but that shouldn't be too much of an issue when you parcel them out into detached flights. Whatever number of Mk 3s are left over after that can constitute the future CHF. That's a redistribution of assets that we already own with little additional investment to prep the cabs for the SAR role.
Theoretically that still leaves the previously quoted £6 Billion for SAR-H to raid to pay for x-number of new Chinooks to bolster the future RAF SH Force.
If you want to save even more money then delete Army Wildcat. The Pre-SDSR rhetoric was all about dropping so-called Cold War equipment. Why then are we spending £1 Billion on an aircraft that is only good for targetting units of the 3rd Soviet Shock Army as it pours through the Fulda Gap, a job that the Apache can already do perfectly well for itself, thank you very much.
Do we still have GEMS? I'm sure I'm worth a few quid for that little lot....
Unless Merlin serviceability makes a dramatic improvement, I don't think that the Merlin plan will provide any better availability than we currently get from the Sea King! And surely having aircraft on state is about the most basic requirement for a SAR service...
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Investing a few quid in some spares might help! We're entering the twilight years of the Seaking with no replacement on the cards so we need some creative solution, requiring not too much in the way of cash......
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I have heard the SARF is looking at getting another 7-10 crews in to bolster existing flights then detach crews to the current CG stations. I think the plan is to only cover daylight only until the crews are in place. It would solve some of the military redundancy problems.
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I'm not sure we need capability upgrades for the Mk3/3a as they are pretty good and safe at what they do. It's reliability that's the problem.
Unless the Carson glass cockpit includes replacing all the front-end avionics (AFCS amps etc) there is not much point. The analogue instruments work fine, it's every other bit of avionics that breaks and keeps the cabs on the ground.
On the mechanical side, Frame 290s that didn't crack would be nice... Perhaps even fix the gear, scrap tail and blade fold, get an electric winch and scrap the utility hydraulics altogether.
But it's basically a good, safe bit of kit.
Unless the Carson glass cockpit includes replacing all the front-end avionics (AFCS amps etc) there is not much point. The analogue instruments work fine, it's every other bit of avionics that breaks and keeps the cabs on the ground.
On the mechanical side, Frame 290s that didn't crack would be nice... Perhaps even fix the gear, scrap tail and blade fold, get an electric winch and scrap the utility hydraulics altogether.
But it's basically a good, safe bit of kit.
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Carson have replaced the lift frames with stainless steel which has effectively re-lifed the aircraft and allowed an increase in MAUW.
Open architecture and ethernet/databus could save 1000lb of weight (a trial mk4 has reduced by 700lb already).
Summary of Carson Changes:
Latest variant of GE 'gnome' with 1800shp.
Carson MRB and bi-filar.
5 balded tail rotor with Carson TRBs.
Stainless Steel lift frames,
Glass Cockpit.
Result:
ISA + 30 increase of max torque of 85% to 105% (on Ng limit). Could carry twice the pax of a Melrin Mk3 in Afg on summer days.
Potential MAUW increase.
Increase in payload in order of 1000lb+
Cruise 120-140 kts.
Open architecture and ethernet/databus could save 1000lb of weight (a trial mk4 has reduced by 700lb already).
Summary of Carson Changes:
Latest variant of GE 'gnome' with 1800shp.
Carson MRB and bi-filar.
5 balded tail rotor with Carson TRBs.
Stainless Steel lift frames,
Glass Cockpit.
Result:
ISA + 30 increase of max torque of 85% to 105% (on Ng limit). Could carry twice the pax of a Melrin Mk3 in Afg on summer days.
Potential MAUW increase.
Increase in payload in order of 1000lb+
Cruise 120-140 kts.
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Im up for it again
FROGMEN JUMP TO RESCUE - British Pathe
FROGMEN JUMP TO RESCUE - British Pathe
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David P
Not one of my favourite clips from Pathe News as it includes the awful footage of Commander Russell's accident in 1958. Bad enough to have show this first time but to use it again in 1966 must have caused even more distress to the next of kin.
Not one of my favourite clips from Pathe News as it includes the awful footage of Commander Russell's accident in 1958. Bad enough to have show this first time but to use it again in 1966 must have caused even more distress to the next of kin.
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I believe the ex-Danish Mk 3As had a weather radar which we deleted when we took them across. Weather Radar is essentially a bolt-on piece of kit so that shouldn't be a limiting cost.
Weather Radar is essentially a bolt-on piece of kit so that shouldn't be a limiting cost.
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One of the biggest ongoing arguments on other threads in regard to technical aspects of SAR cabs is the limited utility of a weather radar when compared with a 360 degree (or near-360 in the case of the SK) search radar. The argument has been done to death elsewhere. but it won't lie down.
Sven
Sven
FJH,
I meant no offence to you - my point was just that, as Sven points out, the radar issue has been debated (or should I say argued about) at length in the past and neither camp scored a decisive victory. It is, of course, a significant issue for all-weather SAR helicopters but money will no doubt win the battle against capability...
TOTD
I meant no offence to you - my point was just that, as Sven points out, the radar issue has been debated (or should I say argued about) at length in the past and neither camp scored a decisive victory. It is, of course, a significant issue for all-weather SAR helicopters but money will no doubt win the battle against capability...
TOTD
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No offence taken mate.
Tucumseh has just PM'd me and back-briefed me on the debate and I am now enlightened!
However, there are many nations using SAR cabs that haven't had a previous life doing ASuW/ASW work and indeed there are some who already use EH 101s so I wonder how much of a reduced capability that represents?
Maybe we could see a mix of ex-grey cabs and ex-green cabs and could deploy the 360 degree radar equipped cabs to the more desolate parts of the country.
Furthermore, we operated for many years with both Wessex and Sea King providing SAR cover so I don't see why we couldn't gradually supplant the Sea King with Merlins over an extended period without having to make a substantial up-front financial commitment while the Nation is still brassic.
Tucumseh has just PM'd me and back-briefed me on the debate and I am now enlightened!
However, there are many nations using SAR cabs that haven't had a previous life doing ASuW/ASW work and indeed there are some who already use EH 101s so I wonder how much of a reduced capability that represents?
Maybe we could see a mix of ex-grey cabs and ex-green cabs and could deploy the 360 degree radar equipped cabs to the more desolate parts of the country.
Furthermore, we operated for many years with both Wessex and Sea King providing SAR cover so I don't see why we couldn't gradually supplant the Sea King with Merlins over an extended period without having to make a substantial up-front financial commitment while the Nation is still brassic.
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BTW,
I'm not a Merlin mate and not a particular fan, but seeing as we're already operating them I think we should take advantage of any potential economies of scale rather than procuring a whole new fleet for SAR whether that be through PFI or outright purchase.
I'm not a Merlin mate and not a particular fan, but seeing as we're already operating them I think we should take advantage of any potential economies of scale rather than procuring a whole new fleet for SAR whether that be through PFI or outright purchase.