Do we still do NEOs?
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Do we still do NEOs?
BBC News - Libya unrest: UK plans to charter plane for Britons
I guess this is the sort of thing the military would have done as a Non-combatant Evacuation Operation in the past - when we had the capacity and hardware.
Or is it just that using the military in this situation might be considered provocative by Libya?
Sun
I guess this is the sort of thing the military would have done as a Non-combatant Evacuation Operation in the past - when we had the capacity and hardware.
Or is it just that using the military in this situation might be considered provocative by Libya?
Sun
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T-Handle,
I agree, and not biting to this thread, but I do find it ironic, the only boat that the MOD could send at the request of the FCO was one that was about to return to UK under SDSR to be scrapped!
And with the greatest respect to the Senior Service, what capability is this 'small' tub going to offer UK nationals in Libya?
It is these unstable and unpredictable events that make a mockery of the National Security Council and SDSR-UK plc maybe broke, and MoD/HMG/Industry procurement screw ups may have resulted in a huge black hole....
But are we as a nation sure in these uncertain times that we should be reducing our armed forces so quickly, and with such fervour ( and with what appears very little true use of the word 'strategic')?
I agree, and not biting to this thread, but I do find it ironic, the only boat that the MOD could send at the request of the FCO was one that was about to return to UK under SDSR to be scrapped!
And with the greatest respect to the Senior Service, what capability is this 'small' tub going to offer UK nationals in Libya?
It is these unstable and unpredictable events that make a mockery of the National Security Council and SDSR-UK plc maybe broke, and MoD/HMG/Industry procurement screw ups may have resulted in a huge black hole....
But are we as a nation sure in these uncertain times that we should be reducing our armed forces so quickly, and with such fervour ( and with what appears very little true use of the word 'strategic')?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Curiously the Nimrod also had an NEO role when it was first employed. IIRC it could carry 46 pax in that role.
Gentleman Aviator
And it does all rather highlight the uncertainties which will always face the military.
Never mind not knowing what will happen in five or ten years time; right now five or ten weeks is looking a bit tricky!
Never mind not knowing what will happen in five or ten years time; right now five or ten weeks is looking a bit tricky!
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The FCO has responsibility for the evacuation of Britsh nationals - a NEO is only used when (taking the wording from the old military task 4.2)
So step one is to evacuate individuals using civil means - hence the use of charter aircraft in Egypt. Only when civil options cannot be used will the military be used. As are Armed Forces are currently quite busy elsewhere, it is in the military's best interest to ensure that the FCO's plans are as robust as they can be in order to minimize any military involvement.
So in answer to the OP's question - yes they are; however, they remain the last (rather than the first) option.
Full details are available on the internet (that google thing really is clever) published by the MOD in the UK's Joint Warfare Publication 3-51 Non-combatant Evacuation
Operations.
‘In cases where civil contingency plans prove insufficient, defence capabilities held for other purposes may be used to evacuate United Kingdom entitled personnel from countries where their lives may be at risk’
So in answer to the OP's question - yes they are; however, they remain the last (rather than the first) option.
Full details are available on the internet (that google thing really is clever) published by the MOD in the UK's Joint Warfare Publication 3-51 Non-combatant Evacuation
Operations.
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Not a million years ago there would have been a brace of CH47 parked on the ground in Malta by now on the planning assumption that commercial means would manage to get most, but not all, EPs away (JWP 3.51). This would be a stopgap whilst HMS Ocean/Illustrious/Ark Royal steamed into to the area such that helicopters could operate a shuttle to the ships holding 12.1nm off-shore.
It would be naive to think that PJHQ haven't been tasked with looking at other options (above Cumberland etc) but it would be interesting to see whether there is a 'capability required' vs. 'capability available' gap.
It would be naive to think that PJHQ haven't been tasked with looking at other options (above Cumberland etc) but it would be interesting to see whether there is a 'capability required' vs. 'capability available' gap.
Interestingly, Radio 4 reported this mornning that the Turks evacuated some of their Nationals in 2 x Ferries escorted by a Turkish Navy Frigate.
Geography is in their favour but I hope that we are planning something similar. I understand that there are approx 3000 UK Nationals living in Libya.
Edited to add that I believe 814 NAS is in the Med at the moment taking part in an ASWEX from Siciliy. I hope that they are on standby to take out the Sonar & get ready to to do a personnel lift.
Geography is in their favour but I hope that we are planning something similar. I understand that there are approx 3000 UK Nationals living in Libya.
Edited to add that I believe 814 NAS is in the Med at the moment taking part in an ASWEX from Siciliy. I hope that they are on standby to take out the Sonar & get ready to to do a personnel lift.
Last edited by andyy; 23rd Feb 2011 at 10:37.
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I see the Irish are moving assests to Malta in anticipation.
'The Defence Forces have been tasked with providing an evacuation platform for the possible airlift of approximately 40 Irish citizens from Libya. The Air Corps Learjet departed Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel at 8.40pm and an Air Corps CASA aircraft is due to depart at 10.00pm.
Both Aircraft will fly to Valletta, Malta from where they will remain on stand by to fly to Tripoli to conduct the evacuation operation if required. Both aircraft are expected in Valletta by 06.00am (Irish Time) tomorrow morning. '
'The Defence Forces have been tasked with providing an evacuation platform for the possible airlift of approximately 40 Irish citizens from Libya. The Air Corps Learjet departed Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel at 8.40pm and an Air Corps CASA aircraft is due to depart at 10.00pm.
Both Aircraft will fly to Valletta, Malta from where they will remain on stand by to fly to Tripoli to conduct the evacuation operation if required. Both aircraft are expected in Valletta by 06.00am (Irish Time) tomorrow morning. '
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NEOs
Gents,
If there's no interest in this topic, that's fine (it was only an idle question based on reading an article in the paper) but I'm surprised at the assumption that I'm a journo - I don't think my posting history suggests that - and there are enough clues in my posts for people to work out my current line of employment.
Minigundiplomat,
I'm particularly surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm a journo, we've exchanged PMs in the past.
Regards,
Sun.
If there's no interest in this topic, that's fine (it was only an idle question based on reading an article in the paper) but I'm surprised at the assumption that I'm a journo - I don't think my posting history suggests that - and there are enough clues in my posts for people to work out my current line of employment.
Minigundiplomat,
I'm particularly surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm a journo, we've exchanged PMs in the past.
Regards,
Sun.
I think the anwer to the OP question is NO. Rumours on another site that the "technical problems" given as the reason for the delay in getting the Charter Plane away yesterday was actually a refusal to fly by the aircrew (& who can blame then if you are a civvy who normally flies no where more dangerous than to Faro).
Compared to the efforts of some other Nations, pretty Pxxx Poor.
(Although to give a contrary view offered by MrsY - "No sympathy - they work abroad in dodgy countries for decent pay for their own reasons, they don't pay full taxes, they know (& take) the risk for the rewards they are given, no one makes them - they have to take personal responsibility for the decisions they make & they are the responsibility of their companies. End Of...". harsh but fair???)
Compared to the efforts of some other Nations, pretty Pxxx Poor.
(Although to give a contrary view offered by MrsY - "No sympathy - they work abroad in dodgy countries for decent pay for their own reasons, they don't pay full taxes, they know (& take) the risk for the rewards they are given, no one makes them - they have to take personal responsibility for the decisions they make & they are the responsibility of their companies. End Of...". harsh but fair???)
Last edited by andyy; 24th Feb 2011 at 08:26.
Gentleman Aviator
The FCO has responsibility for the evacuation of Britsh nationals
FCO man: "Clearly ..... (pause, puts fingertips together on table) .... the FCO retains responsibilities ....... (pause, strokes flowing silver locks) ...... in those areas .... (pause, smiles at befuddled military folk) ..... for which it is responsible!"
Gentleman Aviator
Climebear this would have been about '97 or 98' so could have been Albania/Congo/Sierra Leone? We seem to have done lots then....
...... think I was the only airman (light blue) at the meeting, but I guess it is a regular occurrence. Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister is by no means fiction ......
...... think I was the only airman (light blue) at the meeting, but I guess it is a regular occurrence. Yes Minister/Yes Prime Minister is by no means fiction ......
do they deserve to be rescued?
Andyy makes an interesting point - should we bother to rescue these 'merchant venturers'. Hjaving mixed with ex-pat communities in Saudi and elsewhere, I found them to the biggest bunch of whingers and 'put downers' about the UK. In Riyadh - heard many of them describe as 'not the Captains of Industry, rather, the warrant officers of industry'm
Nonetheless there remains the obligation to offer assistance to UK nationals in distress. I wonder how happy some of them are about returning to the UK - based on wjhat I have experienced, there will be a significant number wjo will face outstanding CCJs, criminal proceedings, un paid fines, CSA/maintenance payments....
Nonetheless there remains the obligation to offer assistance to UK nationals in distress. I wonder how happy some of them are about returning to the UK - based on wjhat I have experienced, there will be a significant number wjo will face outstanding CCJs, criminal proceedings, un paid fines, CSA/maintenance payments....
should we bother to rescue these 'merchant venturers'
Having said that there is also an obligation, IMHO, on HMG to make sure the military are adequately resourced to perform such tasks.
Minigundiplomat,
I'm particularly surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm a journo, we've exchanged PMs in the past.
Regards,
Sun.
I'm particularly surprised you jumped to the conclusion I'm a journo, we've exchanged PMs in the past.
Regards,
Sun.