Morale
Guest
Posts: n/a
Morale
BBC News - David Cameron accused of U-turn over military covenant
I am not going to speculate on the general morale within the RAF, or speak for others, but I'll offer my twopenn'th.
I appreciate the economy is in dire straits and that lots of people are facing redundancy or bankruptcy. Therefore, I am glad that I still have a relatively well-paid job.
BUT, the stingy penny-pinching, changing terms and conditions sneaked through the back door, mean-spirited interpretation of rules and regulations has only served to make me less inclined to go the extra yard let alone mile. I am well and truely here on my terms now - and when it gets better, I will be off without a backward glance. I don't expect to be missed for I am just another number. Perhaps it was ever thus. But until I do go, I will be taking every penny I can get, for as little input as possible.
Up yours Dalton.
I am not going to speculate on the general morale within the RAF, or speak for others, but I'll offer my twopenn'th.
I appreciate the economy is in dire straits and that lots of people are facing redundancy or bankruptcy. Therefore, I am glad that I still have a relatively well-paid job.
BUT, the stingy penny-pinching, changing terms and conditions sneaked through the back door, mean-spirited interpretation of rules and regulations has only served to make me less inclined to go the extra yard let alone mile. I am well and truely here on my terms now - and when it gets better, I will be off without a backward glance. I don't expect to be missed for I am just another number. Perhaps it was ever thus. But until I do go, I will be taking every penny I can get, for as little input as possible.
Up yours Dalton.
I think the previous poster expresses an attitude that I am seeing more and more frequently around the bazaars. While there is an acceptance that there must be cuts, a lot of people are feeling very angry that, rather than focus on the organisation, too many reductions are focusing on the individual. The pay freeze, ironically, seems to be given little attention - it's the constant shaving off of the smaller entitlements that makes individuals feel unvalued.
I share some of the sentiments, although not so much the erosion of loyalty. I've never felt much loyalty to the RAF itself or to the CAS (any of them) personally. But I do feel loyalty to my colleagues, my subordinates and my boss. And when my time comes, I too will walk out without a backwards glance.
I share some of the sentiments, although not so much the erosion of loyalty. I've never felt much loyalty to the RAF itself or to the CAS (any of them) personally. But I do feel loyalty to my colleagues, my subordinates and my boss. And when my time comes, I too will walk out without a backwards glance.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Anywhere there's ships and aircraft available
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It makes a change for the normally docile Families Federations to raise their collective voices.
Morale is indeed tumbling, tri-service and across all ranks/rates. Whilst one accepts difficult decisions, a constant barrage of 'we are all in this together' does not make the real pain any easier to bare. And the redundancies haven't even started to bite!
I fear a 'black deep chasm' in manning terms way worse than the 'black hole' caused in the early 1990s. 'Jam tomorrow' or, more likely, in 10 years time will retain no one.
Morale is indeed tumbling, tri-service and across all ranks/rates. Whilst one accepts difficult decisions, a constant barrage of 'we are all in this together' does not make the real pain any easier to bare. And the redundancies haven't even started to bite!
I fear a 'black deep chasm' in manning terms way worse than the 'black hole' caused in the early 1990s. 'Jam tomorrow' or, more likely, in 10 years time will retain no one.
Just to play devils advocate for a minute - the interesting point will be to see how many actually PVR immediatly after the final redundancy tranches/names have been announced. Personally I don't think there will be a huge increase in applications (and outflow can always be maintained / controlled by increasing PVR wait times (as was done in the 90's!)). People bitch and people moan but how many will actually vote with their feet? Yes, people will volunteer (but not all (or any???) will be successful) for redundancy, take their options or not sign on but with plenty knocking at the door wanting to join I don't think manning in terms of pure numbers will be a problem. Granted experience levels may (will) dip but again, post 2015, if Trust-Me-Dave is to be believed we're going to be out of AFG and entering a period of consolidation and retraining.
Sui generis...
It depends on the individual, of course. I am on an overseas posting and we have seen our LOA savaged, along with so many other 'benefits'. Added to the additional cost of CEA (we have no option but to use UK boarding school), living in a very, very expensive place and the fact that there is no meaningful paid employment for Mrs WP, I cannot afford to stay abroad. We do not feel 'valued'. If redundancy does not beckon, I will be out the door ASAP on PVR (in old money) terms.
Certainly I am avoiding lengthy work trips away from home because of the real cost to my pocket (meals, laundry, telephone calls, el cheapo flights). Why should I subsidise the Government doing it's business over and above the tax I pay?
It depends on the individual, of course. I am on an overseas posting and we have seen our LOA savaged, along with so many other 'benefits'. Added to the additional cost of CEA (we have no option but to use UK boarding school), living in a very, very expensive place and the fact that there is no meaningful paid employment for Mrs WP, I cannot afford to stay abroad. We do not feel 'valued'. If redundancy does not beckon, I will be out the door ASAP on PVR (in old money) terms.
Certainly I am avoiding lengthy work trips away from home because of the real cost to my pocket (meals, laundry, telephone calls, el cheapo flights). Why should I subsidise the Government doing it's business over and above the tax I pay?
Last edited by Whenurhappy; 9th Feb 2011 at 09:06.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think that the issue will never be about large numbers of PVRs, that just won't happen. However, the theme of the original post highlights the real issue which is people not being willing to do anything beyond that which is absolutely necessary.
The situation will probably get even worse when the new career mqnagement structure comes into force: 'So I'm not a high flyer and I'm not going to get promoted any further......secondary duties?..work late?..no thanks'
Bear
The situation will probably get even worse when the new career mqnagement structure comes into force: 'So I'm not a high flyer and I'm not going to get promoted any further......secondary duties?..work late?..no thanks'
Bear
Last edited by Big Bear; 9th Feb 2011 at 08:37. Reason: Bad England
I don't think the issue is so much the strength vs liability question. The problem is going to be the motivation of the people who will be left. Sidewayspeak wasn't saying he's going to PVR, but he implied he'll treat the Service as if it were just another job. It's that attitude that I think is the main mind set change that is going to hit the RAF. Maybe it was coming anyway with the new generation, and it's certainly something I've seen in other European air forces, but I think it strikes at the heart of creating the 'will to win'.
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 62
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The great shame about the current situation is:
we have 30 -odd thousand people who, for the last umpty ump years, have been willing to work late, run sports clubs, take increasing amounts of responsibility for no extra pay and maintain the 'unlimted liability' contract of being in a fighting service - all cheerfully, with a can-do spirit...
we have exposed them to increasing b*****x like 'elf and safety, JPA, EO training, gapped posts, reducing allowances...
we have seen the MOD fall in public opinion due to gross mismanagement and poor leadership and unpopular wars...
and now we stick the proverbial bat up... with a synical 'we're all in this together' .
Can we be surprised if people are 'jobsworth'?
we have 30 -odd thousand people who, for the last umpty ump years, have been willing to work late, run sports clubs, take increasing amounts of responsibility for no extra pay and maintain the 'unlimted liability' contract of being in a fighting service - all cheerfully, with a can-do spirit...
we have exposed them to increasing b*****x like 'elf and safety, JPA, EO training, gapped posts, reducing allowances...
we have seen the MOD fall in public opinion due to gross mismanagement and poor leadership and unpopular wars...
and now we stick the proverbial bat up... with a synical 'we're all in this together' .
Can we be surprised if people are 'jobsworth'?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: england
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I applied for redundancy in the 2007/8 redundancy round and didn't get it, within 30 seconds of finding out I handed my PVR app to my boss. From chatting to the guys in PSF that day I found out I wasn't the only one to do so that week. The potential for redundancy gets people thinking about leaving, some even prepare to leave, i.e go to Uni in the evening, get professional quals, look for work etc. Once you've gone through this process the temptation to leave is great, especially if your prospects outside are good. Trouble is, it's an incredibly tough job market at the moment, think very carefully. You can guarantee the manpower planners will be modelling non-redundancy outflow from the RAF based upon previous redudancy rounds, so don't think you are inflicting a blow on the RAF, you aren't, you are merely doing what's expected.
Finally if you decide to leave, work like you've never worked before to make the transition, it's tough out there.
Finally if you decide to leave, work like you've never worked before to make the transition, it's tough out there.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: @exRAF_Al
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BBC link in OP.
Armed forces minister Nick Harvey denied there had been any U-turn, saying the covenant was being written into the Armed Forces Bill. "For the first time we are actually defining the covenant and what it means," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
How far have we sunk for the g'ment needing to be told what its obligations to those who defend it are in some glossy annual brochure. Well done the RBL for speaking out. We should not need to 'define' some standard - we should always be looking for ways to improve it.. we should never be happy resting whilst we have ex-SP out on the streets or in distress because of their military service. And somehow, I don't think that any Con-Dem Bill is going to be about addressing that.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been in the RAF for over 22 years now and I've never seen morale so low - and that's before they start messing about with our pensions!! Gordon Brown's Government and the idiots at MOD that allowed this to happen to the Armed Forces should be tried for Treason!
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Morale is pretty piss poor at the mo, and about to get worse. To be honest, I wonder if the shady side of personnel management has gone a little too far; everyone I know is now talking about covering @rses, getting licenses then getting the hell out of dodge.
Question is, how do they turn the tap of service leavers off? With so many seeing that we are no longer an employer that cares for its people, people wont stay, even with large cash bung FRIs.
Mark my words, in 18 months to 2 years' time, we are going to be facing a huge black hole of experience, across the trades/branches that matter.
Question is, how do they turn the tap of service leavers off? With so many seeing that we are no longer an employer that cares for its people, people wont stay, even with large cash bung FRIs.
Mark my words, in 18 months to 2 years' time, we are going to be facing a huge black hole of experience, across the trades/branches that matter.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know we're all historically traditional dyed-in-the-wool tory voters, but I'm fed up of this "lets blame it all on Paw Broon and Liebour" attitude. Its not him - its ALL 2 faced lying cheating hypocritical politicians in this so called democratically elected parliament!!!! Yes, Broon royally screwed us, but so are the ConDem Party, and the Tories of yesteryear!! Forces friendly? My arse!
We're all in this together? Yeh right - the politicians and the bankers are getting away scot-free for the mess that THEY got us into! They don't have 2 craps about the people who elected them, they only care about the people who put them in place, and the people who will pay their excessive consultancy salaries.
Even when people TRY to stand up for us, they get steamrollered, and forced to take the party line. I honestly believe that Liam Fox has half a clue, and tried to defend the forces. Historically, we've never stood up for ourselves, we've always been "can do" and just got on and done the job regardless, but we need to learn to say no! If they want us to do a job, they can properly fund us and pay us to do it!
Morale IS low - everywhere. I don't see the actions being taken on our behalf making the situation any better though
We're all in this together? Yeh right - the politicians and the bankers are getting away scot-free for the mess that THEY got us into! They don't have 2 craps about the people who elected them, they only care about the people who put them in place, and the people who will pay their excessive consultancy salaries.
Even when people TRY to stand up for us, they get steamrollered, and forced to take the party line. I honestly believe that Liam Fox has half a clue, and tried to defend the forces. Historically, we've never stood up for ourselves, we've always been "can do" and just got on and done the job regardless, but we need to learn to say no! If they want us to do a job, they can properly fund us and pay us to do it!
Morale IS low - everywhere. I don't see the actions being taken on our behalf making the situation any better though
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Speaking personally, I will be leaving the Service sooner rather than later. I am not going to go in a hurry but will bide my time until I have a second career to go to outside - leaving in a hurry in the middle of a recession wouldn't be very bright. That said, in my mind I have left already, my focus is on preparing for my life outside.
The trigger? Loads of them. The clincher was CEA but the relentless increase in task coinciding with decrease in resource is the underlying reason - and the bureaucracy has got really stupid. I have been in 'full-on' tours/dets end-to-end for 10 years now (ie 12 hrs plus per day plus weekend work - just as well for the RAF they don't pay overtime) - I either want to be paid more for the same level of work or take a greater quality of life option.
The trigger? Loads of them. The clincher was CEA but the relentless increase in task coinciding with decrease in resource is the underlying reason - and the bureaucracy has got really stupid. I have been in 'full-on' tours/dets end-to-end for 10 years now (ie 12 hrs plus per day plus weekend work - just as well for the RAF they don't pay overtime) - I either want to be paid more for the same level of work or take a greater quality of life option.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never seen morale this low, truly a dangerous situation.
I honestly believe it could compromise flight safety, people are just desperate to jump ship and who can blame them?
Labour is largely to blame for this mess, for it's irresponsible spending over the last 13 years, never mind military spending we dont have enough money for police, nurses, teachers etc and that is what joe public really cares about.
When they are closing libraries, cutting teachers and nurses and can't fix the roads nobody out there cares about the harrier or nimrod.
Constant erosion of anything worthwhile in the RAF, combined with ooa tours to ****holes with little purpose or meaningful progress means people are fed up.
I honestly believe it could compromise flight safety, people are just desperate to jump ship and who can blame them?
Labour is largely to blame for this mess, for it's irresponsible spending over the last 13 years, never mind military spending we dont have enough money for police, nurses, teachers etc and that is what joe public really cares about.
When they are closing libraries, cutting teachers and nurses and can't fix the roads nobody out there cares about the harrier or nimrod.
Constant erosion of anything worthwhile in the RAF, combined with ooa tours to ****holes with little purpose or meaningful progress means people are fed up.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: The real world
Posts: 446
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kreuger Flap, are you having a laugh? pay rise? not a chance!
And getting away early on a Friday isnt an indicator of a better quality of life! enjoying your job, job satisfaction, and having a sense of purpose would be nice.
Not getting stiffed for **** duties and fighting a pointless war in a dusty ****hole might also help.
And getting away early on a Friday isnt an indicator of a better quality of life! enjoying your job, job satisfaction, and having a sense of purpose would be nice.
Not getting stiffed for **** duties and fighting a pointless war in a dusty ****hole might also help.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Odiham
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Morale?
I believe I am correct in saying that all public sector workers have had their pay frozen for 2 years so the only surprise from the AFPRB will be how much FQ rent etc.. is raised.
RAF Odiham based aircraft fly on a Friday until 1700 and sometimes beyond so whilst the aircrew mates can usually make happy hour our engineering brethren will often still be in work well into the evening.
Morale? It's the uncertainty that is destructive.
RAF Odiham based aircraft fly on a Friday until 1700 and sometimes beyond so whilst the aircrew mates can usually make happy hour our engineering brethren will often still be in work well into the evening.
Morale? It's the uncertainty that is destructive.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As more gets sliced off people will increasingly treat the job as an 8-5 job and not a 24 hour vocation.
Extra duties? Extra time off in lieu thank you.
The Civil Service recognises work beyond 'conditioned' hours and has a system of overtime or time off in lieu. They also pay extra for travelling time - if you are required to travel to a remote for a normal start work then they pay for the extra travelling time.