Rig Support Vessel In Trouble
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Amazingly one day of Oil Production from the North Sea could fund a fleet of Nimrod type aircraft for a few years. Not bad investment really to cover your own arse just in case, and while there take a small fee from the Fisheries protection to do tasking to keep current, Hell with Terrorism and Submarines let the UK Gov sort that out as they appear to have a plan and let the French sort it out for us. We have had no ASW aircraft at Kinloss for over 2 months now so this crap on the US and French helping out is complete arse biscuits.
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Good old *aywacs to the rescue.
I take it the boys were one their way home and a crew was found to fly this task or do we actually have crews on SAR standby now? I was in the mess today but didn't see the Ops 1 crew there. Or yesterday. Or the day before. Hmmmmm Strange........
Oh and Really Annoyed - please chill out! Your very cross!
I take it the boys were one their way home and a crew was found to fly this task or do we actually have crews on SAR standby now? I was in the mess today but didn't see the Ops 1 crew there. Or yesterday. Or the day before. Hmmmmm Strange........Oh and Really Annoyed - please chill out! Your very cross!
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Some posters seem to think that this incident shows the requirement for Nimrod.
Not that I disagree that we should have Nimrod, but I would suggest that this incident shows the opposite.
ie.
Incident happened.
There was no Nimrod.
Things were fine anyway.
Not that I disagree that we should have Nimrod, but I would suggest that this incident shows the opposite.
ie.
Incident happened.
There was no Nimrod.
Things were fine anyway.
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Having being involved in yesterdays mission and having had experience of this kind of mission on Nims I can honestly say that the product we pushed off the aircraft yesterday was no different from my previous life. Even if we could have carried stores and dropped a dinghy in that sea state it would have been difficult for even a fit man (or women) to have gained benefit from being dropped one.
With the amount of positions and radios we carry we are suited to this role. We held the air and surface picture in a robust fashion and calmly ran the scenario. The helo guys were their usual professional selves making our role easier to fulfill. If their lives had become difficult we always where they were and who could have helped at all times.
With the amount of positions and radios we carry we are suited to this role. We held the air and surface picture in a robust fashion and calmly ran the scenario. The helo guys were their usual professional selves making our role easier to fulfill. If their lives had become difficult we always where they were and who could have helped at all times.
Last edited by Vim_Fuego; 5th Feb 2011 at 11:10.
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Quite right tourist 
I have nearly crashed my car a few times but got away with it, never needed the airbag or seatbelt what a waste of money they were! Come to think of it fire extingishers are a waste of time/money too, I've never needed one (well not for a fire
)
The response to this incident seems to have gone well
but was it flexible enough to cover the worst case scenarios when all the holes line up?
I'm struggling to think of another European country that has worse FW SAR cover now, I'm sure the spin doctors/beancounters will say that the UK is leading the world with it's more efficient approache to SAR etc.
Edit: Vim just seen your post, BZ all round! I agree that for the situation that happened yesterday the platform was probably better than MPA, but it lacks flexibility. There aren't many countries looking to use it for FW SAR.
I have nearly crashed my car a few times but got away with it, never needed the airbag or seatbelt what a waste of money they were! Come to think of it fire extingishers are a waste of time/money too, I've never needed one (well not for a fire
)The response to this incident seems to have gone well
but was it flexible enough to cover the worst case scenarios when all the holes line up?I'm struggling to think of another European country that has worse FW SAR cover now, I'm sure the spin doctors/beancounters will say that the UK is leading the world with it's more efficient approache to SAR etc.
Edit: Vim just seen your post, BZ all round! I agree that for the situation that happened yesterday the platform was probably better than MPA, but it lacks flexibility. There aren't many countries looking to use it for FW SAR.
Last edited by Ivan Rogov; 5th Feb 2011 at 12:43.
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I am just curious as to what fixed wing aircraft the RAF have that could carryout such a mission.
The response to this incident seems to have gone well 
but was it flexible enough to cover the worst case scenarios when all the holes line up?
but was it flexible enough to cover the worst case scenarios when all the holes line up?
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Shawshank, that is not the only major difference for SAR. The time for BS briefs on the mighty mushrooms capabilities to do everything are over, they have to do it all now anyway 
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Kreuger, they don't hold SAR standby.
There was a P-sortie aircraft out and about, it was recalled whilst a crew was scraped together, the jet was turned and launched off on the mission.
Thankfully it happened early enough on p.o.e.t.s day that not everyone had p'd o.e.
There was a P-sortie aircraft out and about, it was recalled whilst a crew was scraped together, the jet was turned and launched off on the mission.
Thankfully it happened early enough on p.o.e.t.s day that not everyone had p'd o.e.
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Cheers to various posters for the info.
I don't think all those (me included) necessarily thing this is a 'we should have had Nimrod' moment, an E3 has the manpower and kit to do a good job (imo) so it'd be foolish to claim this was somehow inferior to the job a Nimrod would have done.
Equally, although dinghies have been drooped in anger, it isn't a task that comes up on the majority of SAR sorties so again, no problem.
I think my main concern is that the aircraft was available by pure luck, pretty much (as I read it, I am prepared to be corrected if there's such an aircraft always available for SAR) - ie we still lack a dedicated asset that can get airborne pdq when a major event surfaces... and a major event WILL pop up one fine day.
Don't worry about Really Annoyed - his posts are always in the same spleen venting style, I think Pprune must be some sort of therapy.
Dave
I don't think all those (me included) necessarily thing this is a 'we should have had Nimrod' moment, an E3 has the manpower and kit to do a good job (imo) so it'd be foolish to claim this was somehow inferior to the job a Nimrod would have done.
Equally, although dinghies have been drooped in anger, it isn't a task that comes up on the majority of SAR sorties so again, no problem.
I think my main concern is that the aircraft was available by pure luck, pretty much (as I read it, I am prepared to be corrected if there's such an aircraft always available for SAR) - ie we still lack a dedicated asset that can get airborne pdq when a major event surfaces... and a major event WILL pop up one fine day.
Don't worry about Really Annoyed - his posts are always in the same spleen venting style, I think Pprune must be some sort of therapy.
Dave
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Ivan
"I have nearly crashed my car a few times but got away with it, never needed the airbag or seatbelt what a waste of money they were"
Poor example I think.
This is equivalent to actually rather than nearly crashing the car and not requiring those items.
If cars crashed all the time and the evidence showed no need for safety equipment, then we wouldn't all have them by law.
Bringing attention to an incident which required no Nimrod hardly helps the case for the requirement for Nimrod for SAR.
"I have nearly crashed my car a few times but got away with it, never needed the airbag or seatbelt what a waste of money they were"
Poor example I think.
This is equivalent to actually rather than nearly crashing the car and not requiring those items.
If cars crashed all the time and the evidence showed no need for safety equipment, then we wouldn't all have them by law.
Bringing attention to an incident which required no Nimrod hardly helps the case for the requirement for Nimrod for SAR.
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#26
Whatever, the point is SAR standby isn't held.
What is it with this place, Mrs WW says it's worse than mums net; I can well believe it.
Biggus - I've always opined that an E-3D crew should be held at standby, just as Hercs used to (they may still do, but that's irrelevant) have 6A and 6B crews. I mentioned as much a few years ago to be told 'there's far too much to be done on the squadron to let a crew go home on standby'.
What is it with this place, Mrs WW says it's worse than mums net; I can well believe it.
Biggus - I've always opined that an E-3D crew should be held at standby, just as Hercs used to (they may still do, but that's irrelevant) have 6A and 6B crews. I mentioned as much a few years ago to be told 'there's far too much to be done on the squadron to let a crew go home on standby'.
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How about a big well done to the SAR hel crews who uplifted 77 crew (RAF 47, CG 30) from the Gryphon-A. They did a cracking job by landing on a pitching, rolling, heaving deck and dropped them all safely on nearby rigs. Thank you also to the Jigsaw crew who were coordinating the event admirably before the E3-D pitched up.
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YellaRednGrey Post #40
An excellent summary of the incident which recognises the contribution of all the assets involved. Praise also to the boys & girls at MRCC Aberdeen, ARCC and Aberdeen ATSU for making the plan work and let's also recognise that the OIM & the crew of Gryphon Alpha were equally calm and professional throughout the incident.
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Tourist, apologies if my analogy was poor (they were never my strong point) but I think you missed my point.
The point was that they coped with what actually happened (nearly a car crash, as it sounds like an evacuation), in hindsight everything looks great.
But what if things had started to go wrong (Car crash) and plan A wasn't good enough? You need plan B or C (Airbag, seatbelt). We regularly practiced the most elaborate SAR scenarios in the Sim to ensure we could cope, C2, Top cover, etc. could easily lead to low level search and ASR drop in minutes, even waiting 15 mins for a helo might be too long for a survivor in the water (especially as they might still have to search and locate them if you hadn't done it).
There are many ways the situation could have deteriorated yesterday, it didn't but that doesn't demonstrate that our FW SAR cover is sufficient, just that we coped with a relatively simple OEI evacuation. Please don't think I am trying to be a doom and gloom merchant, I am very glad it all went well
The point was that they coped with what actually happened (nearly a car crash, as it sounds like an evacuation), in hindsight everything looks great.
But what if things had started to go wrong (Car crash) and plan A wasn't good enough? You need plan B or C (Airbag, seatbelt). We regularly practiced the most elaborate SAR scenarios in the Sim to ensure we could cope, C2, Top cover, etc. could easily lead to low level search and ASR drop in minutes, even waiting 15 mins for a helo might be too long for a survivor in the water (especially as they might still have to search and locate them if you hadn't done it).
There are many ways the situation could have deteriorated yesterday, it didn't but that doesn't demonstrate that our FW SAR cover is sufficient, just that we coped with a relatively simple OEI evacuation. Please don't think I am trying to be a doom and gloom merchant, I am very glad it all went well
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Ivan, don't get me wrong, I think binning MPA is barking for the UK, just don't think you can illustrate that fact with incidents that didn't require MPA.
The way that they proved the need for seatbelts, for example, was to cite all the cases where people impacted dashboards/steering wheels etc, not by citing the close shaves.
The way that they proved the need for seatbelts, for example, was to cite all the cases where people impacted dashboards/steering wheels etc, not by citing the close shaves.
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Tourist, are you suggesting we need to see proof before we provide something? I understand cost v fatalities is a consideration, but the total hindsight approach to risk management is not the answer... but then again you might get away with it 
I'm not saying we need an MPA for FW SAR. But IMO the platforms and level of cover provided at the moment are not adequate to cover the FW SAR task adequately (A nice perk of owning an MPA fleet was that it could pick up SAR virtually free).
We now have a situation of no dedicated assets and no stated plan to fill or even address the gap in the future. Even the intention to buy something would be encouraging e.g. MCA to purchase 3 Aircraft for medium FW SAR (CN-235, Fokker 60 etc.)
Here's thought, allegedly Cameron has gone against the advice of his defence chiefs, SoS for defence and the DoT (I understand they were concerned with our ability to cover our internationally agreed commitment). Now if there is a fatality and it could be proved that a lack of or inadequate FW SAR cover contributed, could he be guilty of Corporate Manslaughter? Just because he is in a position of power shouldn't mean he can't be held to account just like a CEO, etc.
I'm not saying we need an MPA for FW SAR. But IMO the platforms and level of cover provided at the moment are not adequate to cover the FW SAR task adequately (A nice perk of owning an MPA fleet was that it could pick up SAR virtually free).
We now have a situation of no dedicated assets and no stated plan to fill or even address the gap in the future. Even the intention to buy something would be encouraging e.g. MCA to purchase 3 Aircraft for medium FW SAR (CN-235, Fokker 60 etc.)
Here's thought, allegedly Cameron has gone against the advice of his defence chiefs, SoS for defence and the DoT (I understand they were concerned with our ability to cover our internationally agreed commitment). Now if there is a fatality and it could be proved that a lack of or inadequate FW SAR cover contributed, could he be guilty of Corporate Manslaughter? Just because he is in a position of power shouldn't mean he can't be held to account just like a CEO, etc.
