The F4 vs Modern Fighters
I think we can argue the toss on this all night/week/year long...One of the joys of my current job is that I have been able to talk with ex-Mig 21 drivers of various nations who all held the F-4 in very high regard and they all regarded it as a very potent adversary. Yes it suffered badly early on in Vietnam due to a lack of understanding of the MiG-21's capabilities and restrictive ROE but due to Boyd (yes, I've read his book, also one or two other folders with funny coloured covers 
) and others the natural order was restored to some degree.
I think those of us facing the small airframe, low wing loader threat ( ring any bells?) down at Stanley from late 82 onwards with the F-4M, kitted out with various radar upgrades, 8 AAMs, plus the gun, plus chaff, plus flares had a high degree of confidence in the beast.......
However would I want to fly it now, in 2010, against the current generation of fighters?......No.
Oh BTW soddim,
...
(with the honorable exception of the F-111 guys - subject of another debate?)
) and others the natural order was restored to some degree.I think those of us facing the small airframe, low wing loader threat ( ring any bells?) down at Stanley from late 82 onwards with the F-4M, kitted out with various radar upgrades, 8 AAMs, plus the gun, plus chaff, plus flares had a high degree of confidence in the beast.......
However would I want to fly it now, in 2010, against the current generation of fighters?......No.
Oh BTW soddim,
Can't remember meeting many of the 'we piss*d all over the F4' brigade going through the Friday Blakeney Point CAPs and can't remember any of them turning up at night at low level out over the North Sea either.
(with the honorable exception of the F-111 guys - subject of another debate?)
Last edited by wiggy; 27th Nov 2010 at 22:26.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Start the left, start strapping in, 7 sec after starting the left, start the right, then continue strapping in whilst the jet winds up.
Had a future 51 CO do just that to me 5AM in the tin shed at LEU. Fact was he'd already (self) ****** up his straps then lost the plot totally.
Que shouting match from all concerned, but we still got them off in time.
Don't start me on Mr (slap the sides) Pastry
OR blast charging the pneumatics from a bottle trolley during Q launch strap in. At times like that it is imperative that the man with his finger on the switch fully understands what you are doing next to the GTS exhaust!!
GR
Last edited by glad rag; 27th Nov 2010 at 23:25.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would certainly agree with wiggy that at Stanley post 82 we had every confidence that we would kick the proverbial out of the Argies if they came back and we had a lot of great affil with some very bold and skilful Herc pilots at heights that must have scared the pax at least a bit.
The F111 over the North Sea was a difficult problem - the F3 was a bit better if it was a case of chasing it down.
However, there are fighters and targets - you have to be one or the other and the F4 was very certainly one of the former and the best in its' day.
The F111 over the North Sea was a difficult problem - the F3 was a bit better if it was a case of chasing it down.
However, there are fighters and targets - you have to be one or the other and the F4 was very certainly one of the former and the best in its' day.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: PETERBOROUGH
Age: 62
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEagle, sorry to be a bit picky, it was the right hand door
As for which is the best, the F4 got me to FL540 and M1.1 at 500' over the North Sea on my back seat trips. Damn impressive having spent 6.5 years on 56(F).
wait for the well-practised groundcrew to finish buttoning up the left start door
XV410, having just found my old 'Buzzy's Guide to QRA', I concur - we indeed started the right engine first. In my defence it was all nearly 30 years ago though...and I only had a less than distinguished 488 hrs on the beast. But thanks for the correction!
glad rag, there was also a note stating that:
So there shouldn't have been anything happening during scramble starts without the groundcrews' knowledge.
I also found my old Coningsby Div Card. It lists 43 aerodromes - of which around 24 are now either disused, pongoed or no longer available. To which perhaps Cottesmore, Kinloss, Leeming, Leuchars, Lossiemouth, Lyneham or Wittering might soon be added....
glad rag, there was also a note stating that:
During scramble starts the pilot is to signal the groundcrew and obtain clearance before starting each engine.
I also found my old Coningsby Div Card. It lists 43 aerodromes - of which around 24 are now either disused, pongoed or no longer available. To which perhaps Cottesmore, Kinloss, Leeming, Leuchars, Lossiemouth, Lyneham or Wittering might soon be added....
XV410
I've had 1.3M at 250ft in an F3 and that was with 2x SKF and 2x 9L fitted - she wanted to go faster, but we didn't!
Soddim
That is one of the biggest understatements ever. The F3 was, and still is, one of the fastest jets at low level. It does exactly what was asked for in being able to chase down Fencers, BlackJacks and BackFires in the Iceland-Faroes Gap. I saw many a surprised "pig" and "BOne" driver learning that charging about at 700kts+ on the deck would not save them whilst on Red Flag, etc...
All said though, the F4 was, is, better than F3 at medium to high level - especially the J79 engined ones. It also has that Gene Hunt thing about it "Drop your weapons! You are surrounded by armed b@st@rds!!" - memories from another time that are long lost.
LJ
As for which is the best, the F4 got me to FL540 and M1.1 at 500' over the North Sea on my back seat trips.
Soddim
The F111 over the North Sea was a difficult problem - the F3 was a bit better if it was a case of chasing it down.
All said though, the F4 was, is, better than F3 at medium to high level - especially the J79 engined ones. It also has that Gene Hunt thing about it "Drop your weapons! You are surrounded by armed b@st@rds!!" - memories from another time that are long lost.
LJ
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: US
Age: 79
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New Guy's First Post
Cheers to all...
Interesting posts!
Whenever these kinds of questions come up, I'm encouraged to make the observation that pilots win engagements, not aircraft. And to put it more to the point, engagements are more likely lost than won, with somebody capitalizing on the mistakes of somebody else.
F-4 engine smoke was an issue, depending on observation angle and background lighting conditions. We would go into min burner when still far out...this would reduce the signature and not cost that much in gas.
No argument about number of losses in NVN...but Thud Ridge got its name from being used as a geographical feature used for ingress into the target areas.
As for Boyd, his EM work was invaluable. His "40 sec" maneuver, however, was only good when 1v1 and then only good when used against someone who was clueless. Anyone who was forewarned would simply yo-yo off and re-engage having never given up the 3/9 line.
The USAF hands on experience against Soviet aircraft was also invaluable but needed to be understood for what it was...experience against early model MiG-21s and export model MiG-23s.
USAF training philosophy back in the 60s was to discourage or even ban dissimilar air combat training. Formations and tactics tended to be stuck in Korean War concepts. It took the bitter lessons of the VN war and finally someone at flag rank listening to and understanding what the USN was doing at TOPGUN (and other places) that finally moved us forward.
Interesting posts!
Whenever these kinds of questions come up, I'm encouraged to make the observation that pilots win engagements, not aircraft. And to put it more to the point, engagements are more likely lost than won, with somebody capitalizing on the mistakes of somebody else.
F-4 engine smoke was an issue, depending on observation angle and background lighting conditions. We would go into min burner when still far out...this would reduce the signature and not cost that much in gas.
No argument about number of losses in NVN...but Thud Ridge got its name from being used as a geographical feature used for ingress into the target areas.
As for Boyd, his EM work was invaluable. His "40 sec" maneuver, however, was only good when 1v1 and then only good when used against someone who was clueless. Anyone who was forewarned would simply yo-yo off and re-engage having never given up the 3/9 line.
The USAF hands on experience against Soviet aircraft was also invaluable but needed to be understood for what it was...experience against early model MiG-21s and export model MiG-23s.
USAF training philosophy back in the 60s was to discourage or even ban dissimilar air combat training. Formations and tactics tended to be stuck in Korean War concepts. It took the bitter lessons of the VN war and finally someone at flag rank listening to and understanding what the USN was doing at TOPGUN (and other places) that finally moved us forward.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And what a forward move it was! I enjoyed the aggressors every six weeks and watched in envy as a succession of really manoeuverable fighters replaced the F4.
Meanwhile, back in Blighty, we had to make do with a converted bomber.
Meanwhile, back in Blighty, we had to make do with a converted bomber.
Probably been posted before....but, judging by the roundal type, this information film about the RAF F-4 must be some 40 odd years old.......anyone on here preserved for posterity 
YouTube - R.A.F. F-4 Phantoms in the 70s
YouTube - R.A.F. F-4 Phantoms in the 70s
RAF Phantom Video - 1990s
Anyone who served at HQ STC (as was) in the mid-90s and attended or watched the CinC's Friday Brief on CCTV will remember this video which was often broadcast beforehand. A few of us with fond memories of the good times had with this aircraft were close to tears at the sight of the Phantastic Phantom on the scrap heap.
YouTube - F-4 Phantoms in Cyprus
YouTube - F-4 Phantoms in Cyprus
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 28th Nov 2010 at 20:24.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GeeRam's post brought back some familiar faces - Bob Rogers and Terry Bollans starring as leaders and a very young looking Ray Horwood, Jack Stone, Paul L-P and others.
Bet Horace was driving the coach - he should have starred too.
The budget obviously didn't run to a continuity man - tanks on and off, 64 Sqn then 6 Sqn, 'clear start left' and started right. Guess leaving the tank and aux air door locks in place was OK for a documentary. Bit pickky but if you're going to do it, get it right!
Nostalgic though! Real trip down memory lane - need a drink at happy hour now!
Bet Horace was driving the coach - he should have starred too.
The budget obviously didn't run to a continuity man - tanks on and off, 64 Sqn then 6 Sqn, 'clear start left' and started right. Guess leaving the tank and aux air door locks in place was OK for a documentary. Bit pickky but if you're going to do it, get it right!
Nostalgic though! Real trip down memory lane - need a drink at happy hour now!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Post 61
That video was rather good and brought back some happy memories, the line of tails at the beginning however just emphasises just what has been lost.
RAF Phantom - In It's Day
A bit of a thread drift here but there was a time when all the chips fell into place to give us a first rate capability for a while.
I was the JEngO on one of the Phantom sqns at Wildenrath in the late-1970s. The sqn had only been formed a few months when I arrived. The crew ratio at the time was 2:1 and we had the use of an In Use Reserve aircraft in addition to our established strength. Almost all the pilots were ex-Phantom mud movers or ex-Lightning, quite a few with 1000+ hours on those types. Initially, to keep experience levels up in the demanding low-level role, only one first tourist pilot and nav per sqn were allowed. I well remember the outcry in the crewroom when it became known that we were to get another first tour pilot and two retread navs - one from the Vulcan and one from the Shackleton AEW2. Cries of "crew experience dilution" and warnings of dire consequences were heard but of course nothing untoward actually happened (not attributable to those individuals anyway !). In fact the pilot went on to do an exchange tour with the USN on the F-14 and subsequently commanded a Tornado F3 sqn so he obviously was no slouch.
At the time, apart from the USAF F-15s at Bitburg, just about everybody else in NATO in that part of the world was still flying the F-104G with just 2 x early model Sidewinder and the M-61 20 mm gun. By contrast, our Phantoms carried 4 x Skyflash (just introduced), 4 x AIM-9G Sidewinder and the SUU-23A 20mm gun pod, and the MCS radar was the subject of numerous ongoing updates. In the hands of an experienced crew who knew how to exploit the advantages of the weapon system, it was a formidable beast in it's day and even managed to defeat a few F-15s on Sqn Exchange through the use of superior tactics.
Aircraft on "Battle Flight" [QRA(I)] were held in HASs at RS05 with crews out of the cockpit in adjacent living accommodation. Frequent practice scrambles were mounted which I never got tired of watching. Ideally, if everyone was on the ball (bearing in mind they might have been asleep seconds earlier), both aircrew would be in the cockpit, both engines would be started and, if the hydraulic reservoir did not need topping up, the aircraft would be ready to taxy even before the pre-heated INAS had aligned (which took 108 seconds IIRC). Hooter to airborne in well under 3 minutes was frequently achieved. On occasion, we would deploy forward to RAF Gutersloh and occupy the former Lightning QRA sheds there. Being so close to the ADIZ, INAS alignment could be dispensed with and the best time achieved from hooter to commencing takeoff roll was 75 seconds !
During Station MINEVALs, HQ RAFG MAXEVALs and NATO TACEVALs (something every month), well-trained and regularly practiced groundcrew routinely performed Operational Turn Rounds in 15-20 minutes (from engine shutdown pushed back in a HAS to aircraft on state again) in full NBC IPE and the Wildenrath Wing earned the best possible TACEVAL result at the first attempt (a feat totally unachievable by anyone in NATO now).
Like everyone before us, then and since, we claimed to be short of resources - too few personnel to man all the HASs and do force protection even when working 16-hour days, too few aircraft spares, too few vehicles, not enough GSE and so on. However, looking back it was a golden age before all the Health and Safety, Equal Opportunities, Management Plan, Performance Indicators and similar bolleux was invented and took away all the fun (or made it more difficult to have anyway).
I was the JEngO on one of the Phantom sqns at Wildenrath in the late-1970s. The sqn had only been formed a few months when I arrived. The crew ratio at the time was 2:1 and we had the use of an In Use Reserve aircraft in addition to our established strength. Almost all the pilots were ex-Phantom mud movers or ex-Lightning, quite a few with 1000+ hours on those types. Initially, to keep experience levels up in the demanding low-level role, only one first tourist pilot and nav per sqn were allowed. I well remember the outcry in the crewroom when it became known that we were to get another first tour pilot and two retread navs - one from the Vulcan and one from the Shackleton AEW2. Cries of "crew experience dilution" and warnings of dire consequences were heard but of course nothing untoward actually happened (not attributable to those individuals anyway !). In fact the pilot went on to do an exchange tour with the USN on the F-14 and subsequently commanded a Tornado F3 sqn so he obviously was no slouch.
At the time, apart from the USAF F-15s at Bitburg, just about everybody else in NATO in that part of the world was still flying the F-104G with just 2 x early model Sidewinder and the M-61 20 mm gun. By contrast, our Phantoms carried 4 x Skyflash (just introduced), 4 x AIM-9G Sidewinder and the SUU-23A 20mm gun pod, and the MCS radar was the subject of numerous ongoing updates. In the hands of an experienced crew who knew how to exploit the advantages of the weapon system, it was a formidable beast in it's day and even managed to defeat a few F-15s on Sqn Exchange through the use of superior tactics.
Aircraft on "Battle Flight" [QRA(I)] were held in HASs at RS05 with crews out of the cockpit in adjacent living accommodation. Frequent practice scrambles were mounted which I never got tired of watching. Ideally, if everyone was on the ball (bearing in mind they might have been asleep seconds earlier), both aircrew would be in the cockpit, both engines would be started and, if the hydraulic reservoir did not need topping up, the aircraft would be ready to taxy even before the pre-heated INAS had aligned (which took 108 seconds IIRC). Hooter to airborne in well under 3 minutes was frequently achieved. On occasion, we would deploy forward to RAF Gutersloh and occupy the former Lightning QRA sheds there. Being so close to the ADIZ, INAS alignment could be dispensed with and the best time achieved from hooter to commencing takeoff roll was 75 seconds !
During Station MINEVALs, HQ RAFG MAXEVALs and NATO TACEVALs (something every month), well-trained and regularly practiced groundcrew routinely performed Operational Turn Rounds in 15-20 minutes (from engine shutdown pushed back in a HAS to aircraft on state again) in full NBC IPE and the Wildenrath Wing earned the best possible TACEVAL result at the first attempt (a feat totally unachievable by anyone in NATO now).
Like everyone before us, then and since, we claimed to be short of resources - too few personnel to man all the HASs and do force protection even when working 16-hour days, too few aircraft spares, too few vehicles, not enough GSE and so on. However, looking back it was a golden age before all the Health and Safety, Equal Opportunities, Management Plan, Performance Indicators and similar bolleux was invented and took away all the fun (or made it more difficult to have anyway).
QF-4E Still In Use By USAF
Seen at my "local" airshow at Nellis AFB two weeks ago. QF-4E drone still in use by the USAF with 82 ATRS at Holloman AFB. It can also be flown from the cockpit and performed as part of the USAF Air Combat Command Heritage Display.
Press thumbnail for a larger view.
Press thumbnail for a larger view.
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 28th Nov 2010 at 23:16. Reason: amend photo links
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RAFEngO74to09,
Concur with your post re F4 at Wilders - towards the end of my tour there we took off the fletchers, making the beast even more fun: airborne by the approach end cable, transonic LL performance in dry power, a match for any jet in theatre (including F-15, F-16 and F-18). Halcyon days.....
Concur with your post re F4 at Wilders - towards the end of my tour there we took off the fletchers, making the beast even more fun: airborne by the approach end cable, transonic LL performance in dry power, a match for any jet in theatre (including F-15, F-16 and F-18). Halcyon days.....
F-4 Still In Iranian Service
Dr Jekyll,
According to a report by the US Defense Intelligence Agency to the Senate Armed Services Committee in April 2010 - yes, but no quantity was mentioned.
According to a report by the US Defense Intelligence Agency to the Senate Armed Services Committee in April 2010 - yes, but no quantity was mentioned.
Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 29th Nov 2010 at 14:46. Reason: spelling
RAFG Low Level "Last Flights"
Who remembers the RAFG tradition of ultra low level "last flights" over the parent sqn HAS site by pilots leaving the sqn or the RAF - everyone rushing outside to stand on a revetment to make the aircraft seem even lower ?
Seeing a Buccaneer below the level of the top of a Bloodhound radar (on stilts) and a Phantom below the top of the stadium lights at Akrotiri was just fantastic.
Here's a more recent clip of a "last flight" by a Gerrman AF pilot in a F-4F.
YouTube - Phantom F-4 - Low Pass
Seeing a Buccaneer below the level of the top of a Bloodhound radar (on stilts) and a Phantom below the top of the stadium lights at Akrotiri was just fantastic.
Here's a more recent clip of a "last flight" by a Gerrman AF pilot in a F-4F.
YouTube - Phantom F-4 - Low Pass
US ANG RF-4C Low Level Clip
More great footage found on You Tube - this time of a US ANG RF-4C.
YouTube - RF4 RightNow NOISE! RF-4 F4 Phantom F-4
I grew up near a USAF base in the UK at a time when the USAF had around 600 F-4C/D/E and RF-4C in USAFE alone with 72-aircraft wings at Alconbury, Bentwaters / Woodbridge, Lakenheath, Bitburg, Hahn, Spangdahlem, Torrejon and Zweibrucken, and a 24-aircraft squadron at Soesterberg. Every weekend almost every USAF F-4 unit in Germany and Spain sent landaway aircraft to the UK - unbelievable activity levels by todays standards and a great J-79 "sound of freedom" over my house.
YouTube - RF4 RightNow NOISE! RF-4 F4 Phantom F-4
I grew up near a USAF base in the UK at a time when the USAF had around 600 F-4C/D/E and RF-4C in USAFE alone with 72-aircraft wings at Alconbury, Bentwaters / Woodbridge, Lakenheath, Bitburg, Hahn, Spangdahlem, Torrejon and Zweibrucken, and a 24-aircraft squadron at Soesterberg. Every weekend almost every USAF F-4 unit in Germany and Spain sent landaway aircraft to the UK - unbelievable activity levels by todays standards and a great J-79 "sound of freedom" over my house.