Should we be afraid?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Trojan, I found this:
3000 yards seems quite reasonable.
Beginning with the first NA-161 aircraft (49-1007), the A-1B GBR sight and AN/APG-5C ranging radar were provided as factory-installed equipment. This new equipment was designed to automatically measure the range and automatically calculate the appropriate lead before the guns were fired, relieving the pilot of the cumbersome task of having to manually adjust an optical sight in order to determine the range to the target. When activated, the system automatically locked onto and tracked the target. The sight image determined by the A-1B was projected onto the armored glass of the windscreen, and the illumination of a radar target indicator light on the sight indicated time to track target continuously for one second before firing. This system could be used for rocket or bomb aiming as well as for guns.
In the last 24 F-86A-5-NAs that were built, the A-1B GPR sight and AN/APG-5C ranging radar were replaced by the A-1CM sight that was coupled with an AN/APG-30 radar scanner installed in the upper lip of the nose intake underneath a dark-colored dielectric covering. The APG-30 radar was a better unit than the AN/APG-5C, with a sweep range from 150 to 3000 yards. The A-1CM sight and the APG-30 ranging radar were both retrofitted to earlier A-5s during in-field modifications. These planes were redesignated F-86A-7-NA. However, some F-86A-5-NAs had the new A-1CM GBR sight combined with the older AN/APG-5C radar. These were redesignated F-86A-6-NA.
In the last 24 F-86A-5-NAs that were built, the A-1B GPR sight and AN/APG-5C ranging radar were replaced by the A-1CM sight that was coupled with an AN/APG-30 radar scanner installed in the upper lip of the nose intake underneath a dark-colored dielectric covering. The APG-30 radar was a better unit than the AN/APG-5C, with a sweep range from 150 to 3000 yards. The A-1CM sight and the APG-30 ranging radar were both retrofitted to earlier A-5s during in-field modifications. These planes were redesignated F-86A-7-NA. However, some F-86A-5-NAs had the new A-1CM GBR sight combined with the older AN/APG-5C radar. These were redesignated F-86A-6-NA.
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Sabre Gun-sight
Hello Trojan1981 and PN; now you are really testing me!
I will have to consult with some of my fossil colleagues - over beers of course - at the next fighter squadrons association luncheon but here is what I recall about the Sabre gun-sight and ranging radar.
The gun-sight could be operated in fixed (caged) mode, as was normal for air to ground weapons delivery, or uncaged when seeking to have the ranging radar lock onto a target for air to air stuff. The wingspan of a target was set manually in feet so when the target filled the reticle, you were at optimum firing range for weapons system harmonization.
For air to air practice gunnery, the tug was then another Sabre towing a banner which was attached via a quick release in a speed brake well. A long steel cable was then secured to a strong metal bar with asymmetric size steel wheels either end to make the banner fly upright. A radar reflector was fitted to this arrangement and a bright orange mesh banner attached with a centre black dot aiming point. Length of the banner escapes me but maybe around 30 feet.
The tug would fly straight and level with the attacking aircraft positioned on a perch about 2 miles abeam and maybe 2,000 feet higher, then roll in and point downhill toward the banner selecting radar ranging mode for the gun-sight and confirming lock on to the banner and not the tug. The pipper was the predicted impact point for the rounds with the attacking aircraft adjusting the curve of pursuit as IAS and 'G' increased seeking to have the pipper on the banner aiming point at optimum firing range. Cannot remember what that was either but one of the whips used to press in to around 400 feet as indicated by the banner filling a frame on his cine film! At about 450knots, not much time (micro-seconds) for a very brief squirt of cannon and rolling to avoid collision with the banner. Most of us perhaps fired at the banner from about 800 feet plus range and usually scored maybe half his number of hits. If the curve of pursuit was too slack and angle off too low, the big 30mm rounds would go close to the tug making a noise like an express train and rude words would be spoken!
In air to ground gunnery with the gun-sight in caged mode, the 'foul line' was I think 1,200 feet from the target by which you had to cease firing and point skywards to avoid collecting any ricochets.
Near 50 years ago now but it was all great fun.
I will have to consult with some of my fossil colleagues - over beers of course - at the next fighter squadrons association luncheon but here is what I recall about the Sabre gun-sight and ranging radar.
The gun-sight could be operated in fixed (caged) mode, as was normal for air to ground weapons delivery, or uncaged when seeking to have the ranging radar lock onto a target for air to air stuff. The wingspan of a target was set manually in feet so when the target filled the reticle, you were at optimum firing range for weapons system harmonization.
For air to air practice gunnery, the tug was then another Sabre towing a banner which was attached via a quick release in a speed brake well. A long steel cable was then secured to a strong metal bar with asymmetric size steel wheels either end to make the banner fly upright. A radar reflector was fitted to this arrangement and a bright orange mesh banner attached with a centre black dot aiming point. Length of the banner escapes me but maybe around 30 feet.
The tug would fly straight and level with the attacking aircraft positioned on a perch about 2 miles abeam and maybe 2,000 feet higher, then roll in and point downhill toward the banner selecting radar ranging mode for the gun-sight and confirming lock on to the banner and not the tug. The pipper was the predicted impact point for the rounds with the attacking aircraft adjusting the curve of pursuit as IAS and 'G' increased seeking to have the pipper on the banner aiming point at optimum firing range. Cannot remember what that was either but one of the whips used to press in to around 400 feet as indicated by the banner filling a frame on his cine film! At about 450knots, not much time (micro-seconds) for a very brief squirt of cannon and rolling to avoid collision with the banner. Most of us perhaps fired at the banner from about 800 feet plus range and usually scored maybe half his number of hits. If the curve of pursuit was too slack and angle off too low, the big 30mm rounds would go close to the tug making a noise like an express train and rude words would be spoken!
In air to ground gunnery with the gun-sight in caged mode, the 'foul line' was I think 1,200 feet from the target by which you had to cease firing and point skywards to avoid collecting any ricochets.
Near 50 years ago now but it was all great fun.
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 30th Oct 2010 at 21:55.
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Perhaps it’s time for some levity. Bushranger 71, your post has made me search deep into my archives for a tale that just might have grown somewhat in the telling over the years, but the details I heard as a very young cadet aircrew one Friday afternoon at Point Cook from one of the Knuck instructors (I think it was Brick) way back when are pretty much as I recount them here.
AIRSHOW BLUES
The high point in some pilots’ lives is to perform at an airshow. The Australian public has always been very enthusiastic about airshows, but just how public perceptions of the Military have changed over the years might best be illustrated by my own recollections of the 1967 Laverton Airshow. One of the highlights was a Vampire dropping naplam onto a mock Vietnamese village. The official announcer waxed lyrical as the black smoke curled skywards and the mock huts burned - and the crowd just loved it. How that would have been received even three years later I hesitate to think.
Even earlier, back in the 50’s, the organisers of the Williamtown Airshow decided to include a demonstration of air to air gunnery. Williamtown, the home of the RAAF’s fighter force, is right on the coast, with a firing range almost next door, so such a demonstration was relatively easy to arrange. But what was needed was a way to improve the impact of the demonstration, so the radio transmissions of the pilots would be broadcast over the public address system for the tens of thousands of spectators to hear each riveting word.
Chuck Yeager and Luke Skywalker eat your hearts out.
Air to air gunnery is quite likely one of the more difficult skills man has set himself to master. All the theories of range, lead angle, fall of shot, skid and G-loading must be understood and mastered by every aspiring fighter pilot. It cannot, however, be practised without many safety rules. The tug aircraft tows a rectangular banner behind it on a lo-o-ong cable. If the firing aircraft approaches the banner at 90 degrees, the banner presents a bigger target, but the lead angle calculation is more difficult and the pilot has less time to fire, the relative speeds being very fast. The firing aircraft certainly cannot approach right behind the banner - the easiest shot, with the least closing speed and minimum or no lead angle - or the towing aircraft risks being hit as well. So, minimum approach angles are laid down and strictly enforced.
Back to the Airshow. The next event was announced; the clipped transmissions of the pilots echoed in the spectators’ eager ears; the first aircraft made its pass (deep voice now... ahh... the fame!); the roar of the 30mm Aden guns echoed across the field - and the 100 metre banner cable was cut one metre behind the tug aircraft by the first burst.
And over the public address system, heard clearly and very loudly by tens of thousands of adoring fans, came the strangled voice of the shootee: “Holy Snaffelling Duck****!” And with a final “CLICK”, all broadcast transmissions ceased for the day, as did the live firing exercise.
As far as I'm aware, air to air gunnery has not featured at RAAF Airshows since.
The high point in some pilots’ lives is to perform at an airshow. The Australian public has always been very enthusiastic about airshows, but just how public perceptions of the Military have changed over the years might best be illustrated by my own recollections of the 1967 Laverton Airshow. One of the highlights was a Vampire dropping naplam onto a mock Vietnamese village. The official announcer waxed lyrical as the black smoke curled skywards and the mock huts burned - and the crowd just loved it. How that would have been received even three years later I hesitate to think.
Even earlier, back in the 50’s, the organisers of the Williamtown Airshow decided to include a demonstration of air to air gunnery. Williamtown, the home of the RAAF’s fighter force, is right on the coast, with a firing range almost next door, so such a demonstration was relatively easy to arrange. But what was needed was a way to improve the impact of the demonstration, so the radio transmissions of the pilots would be broadcast over the public address system for the tens of thousands of spectators to hear each riveting word.
Chuck Yeager and Luke Skywalker eat your hearts out.
Air to air gunnery is quite likely one of the more difficult skills man has set himself to master. All the theories of range, lead angle, fall of shot, skid and G-loading must be understood and mastered by every aspiring fighter pilot. It cannot, however, be practised without many safety rules. The tug aircraft tows a rectangular banner behind it on a lo-o-ong cable. If the firing aircraft approaches the banner at 90 degrees, the banner presents a bigger target, but the lead angle calculation is more difficult and the pilot has less time to fire, the relative speeds being very fast. The firing aircraft certainly cannot approach right behind the banner - the easiest shot, with the least closing speed and minimum or no lead angle - or the towing aircraft risks being hit as well. So, minimum approach angles are laid down and strictly enforced.
Back to the Airshow. The next event was announced; the clipped transmissions of the pilots echoed in the spectators’ eager ears; the first aircraft made its pass (deep voice now... ahh... the fame!); the roar of the 30mm Aden guns echoed across the field - and the 100 metre banner cable was cut one metre behind the tug aircraft by the first burst.
And over the public address system, heard clearly and very loudly by tens of thousands of adoring fans, came the strangled voice of the shootee: “Holy Snaffelling Duck****!” And with a final “CLICK”, all broadcast transmissions ceased for the day, as did the live firing exercise.
As far as I'm aware, air to air gunnery has not featured at RAAF Airshows since.
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Good one Wiley and herewith a similar instance in 1961.
An airshow at RAAF Base Pearce in Western Australia; a flight of 4 x Mk. 35 Vampires flown by ex-fighter pilot QFIs with cannons (4) armed with 20mm ball ammunition. I was riding with the late 'Tex' Watson and the target was a mock building on the airfield with the attack direction away from the crowd toward the then seemingly endless sand dunes of WA. Those guys had not done any weapons work for a few years and 2 of them, including Tex, just clipped the target resulting in a certain amount of profanity over the PA system.
Fun times!
An airshow at RAAF Base Pearce in Western Australia; a flight of 4 x Mk. 35 Vampires flown by ex-fighter pilot QFIs with cannons (4) armed with 20mm ball ammunition. I was riding with the late 'Tex' Watson and the target was a mock building on the airfield with the attack direction away from the crowd toward the then seemingly endless sand dunes of WA. Those guys had not done any weapons work for a few years and 2 of them, including Tex, just clipped the target resulting in a certain amount of profanity over the PA system.
Fun times!
Last edited by Bushranger 71; 1st Nov 2010 at 00:28.
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Help me out here fellas, were these the good old days when everything was tops and we had heaps and heaps of great aircraft being operated by very very professional pilots?
Thought so. It was also that time when we would throw away a Huey every year, on average, and crash jets by the handful. The best thing about the good old days was how good we all got at funeral drill.
Of course that was then, and now ADF aviation has to abide by all the rules that were written as a result of idiocy like the incidents you so fondly describe.
Have a little think about that the next time you sit down to bag out the current operators and decision makers.
Thought so. It was also that time when we would throw away a Huey every year, on average, and crash jets by the handful. The best thing about the good old days was how good we all got at funeral drill.
Of course that was then, and now ADF aviation has to abide by all the rules that were written as a result of idiocy like the incidents you so fondly describe.
Have a little think about that the next time you sit down to bag out the current operators and decision makers.
