Pilot employment chances in "civvy" street
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Sarboy chap good post.
To back up MM post - a high level recruiter (head of big public sector jobs agency) who is a very successful lady and a close personal friend, once told me that the most unemployable bunch she had come across were high ranking military officers with MBAs - for pretty much identical reasons that MM articulates. Her advice to them was "if you are networked (that word again) head for the defence sector, they've always got wads of dosh to waste."
Apart from the great vision of some general being kissed off by a career girl half his age, there is wider point of value to those seeking new careers - especially in the private (profit driven) sector.
The ability to work with everyone and anyone is essential. Humility, good management skills, team skills are in. Arrogance, sarcasm and hard-edged banter are out. Dial up the soft, helpful approach to management, dial down the hard-hitting "is to", "are to" approach.
One final item of advice. Aircrew are often effective outside their comfort zone, which is a common trait of effective sales people. You may have a latent sales talent that you do not know about. If you have and you discover it..run with it. An effective sales person is never out of work and a really exceptional sales person writes his/her own pay cheques. You can return to aviation when you buy your first light aircraft.
3. The idea that as ex military you are better than a pure civvy is a myth. You know very little about how to do business, nothing about Corporate Culture, Governance or even the language we speak. We reckon you are pretty useless for 12 – 24 months unless you are exceptional.
Apart from the great vision of some general being kissed off by a career girl half his age, there is wider point of value to those seeking new careers - especially in the private (profit driven) sector.
The ability to work with everyone and anyone is essential. Humility, good management skills, team skills are in. Arrogance, sarcasm and hard-edged banter are out. Dial up the soft, helpful approach to management, dial down the hard-hitting "is to", "are to" approach.
One final item of advice. Aircrew are often effective outside their comfort zone, which is a common trait of effective sales people. You may have a latent sales talent that you do not know about. If you have and you discover it..run with it. An effective sales person is never out of work and a really exceptional sales person writes his/her own pay cheques. You can return to aviation when you buy your first light aircraft.
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Pere Artist had plenty of reasons to head for the defence sales sector (1*, plenty of comms/EW experience), but he refused to be a tart.
He found himself a job as an HR director - despite having no formal HR experience, nor even having been a pusser. The job was good, and he did well. So well that when there was a vacancy for the Sales Director role the CEO asked him to apply. He did well in that too, and held that job til he retired. He was the only ex-Services guy in the place, and when he died I had a fistful of letters from employees who'd thoroughly enjoyed working for him.
He had plenty going for him, mostly that he wasn't a pompous @rse, despite having had drivers, stewards etc., and he hadn't forgotten that his grand-father had been a mill foreman less than ten miles from his new office in Manchester.
A little humility will get you a long way.
He found himself a job as an HR director - despite having no formal HR experience, nor even having been a pusser. The job was good, and he did well. So well that when there was a vacancy for the Sales Director role the CEO asked him to apply. He did well in that too, and held that job til he retired. He was the only ex-Services guy in the place, and when he died I had a fistful of letters from employees who'd thoroughly enjoyed working for him.
He had plenty going for him, mostly that he wasn't a pompous @rse, despite having had drivers, stewards etc., and he hadn't forgotten that his grand-father had been a mill foreman less than ten miles from his new office in Manchester.
A little humility will get you a long way.
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May I, as one who has hired many aircrew from the military make a few observations? Firstly, let me point out that I am ex military, compleated a short service commision and bailed out of the mob when it became clear that the Air Force was turning into a shadow of it previous self, I hadnt joined to push paper around or sit behind a scope so with great trepidation I pulled the pin. Jobs were thin upon the ground, but during my time in the service I had messed around with light aircraft and as a result of making a few contacts managed to scrape by delivering aircraft and doing a bit of ag work, all due to the fact that I had made contacts OUTSIDE of the service during my time in the mob. Without boring you with the details, from then on things fell into place, retired at the very top of the airline heap, started our own charter and flight school outfits {since sold} took Summer LOAs to fire bomb and spray , still fly corporate and charity flights when able, and use the aircraft to train deserving kids, giving them real world training and paying them a living wage at the same time, so what factors caused me to have such a great time while other poor sods finished up selling insurance? most of these guys are by the way a lot smarter and better educated than myself. Let me give you my take on it. To fit in to a small civilian company the first thing to remember is there are no officers and other ranks, only fellow employees, the person who pumps the Blue water out of the aircraft can has just the same status as you, and if he/she aint around ,you do the job, that goes for de iceing the aircraft and cleaning the windshields, toping up the oil, pre heating and all the other tasks that make a five AM start such joy! If you are not willing to do this stuff then expect to get paid a lot less, as when you cover all these tasks then payroll is a lot smaller, thus more for you! one of the best illustrations of this is to watch the CAF launch a Herc at Trenton, a cast of dozens to get it going, then go to Yellowknife and watch First Air go, Buddy Whatshisname and Two Other Fellas,{ You can Google this } load, de ice and launch in half the time . Some of the very best ex military we hired were NCO crewman who obtained their civvy papers and then came to work for us, willing, great tech know how and leaders, in fact I just recieved an e mail from one who is in the left seat of a turbo prop and loves what he is doing. Many who left the service over here did so with a pension, you will not be popular if you bring this up and offer to work for less, most new hires from civvy street are still paying a training debt and dont want to hear this.If you do obtain a civvy flying job, go easy on the war stories, many of the kids flying single pilot IFR have had a few adventures themselves so untill you demonstrate that you can do the job as well as them its best to remain mum about you dareing do. Dont just look to the airlines for a seat, over here GA has far more positions than the sked outfits, Fling Wing pilots have a vast field to try for, things are a bit quiet at this time but will be picking up as the survey buisiness gets back into gear,make your contacts now, dont wait for things to pick up before getting those bits of paper, if you do you will be out of phase with the hiring, remember for a company in aviation, long range planing is tomorows breakfast!I hope nobody will get bent out of shape by my obsevations, I had been in uniform since fourteen years old, well do I remember the difficulty of adjusting to civilian life and flying, no mess to go to, no circle of like minded folks, having to plan ones finances, pension,even aranging acomodation in some Crappy town at short notice,but most of all the change in culture came as a real shock. Looking back Ive done two very smart things in my life, joining the RCAF, and leaving the RCAF! Hope my rambling observations havnt offended anyone!
Just to reinforce some of the excellent advice below, particularly about networking. When I did my resettlement courses we were told 60% of jobs were never advertised!
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For all those that are currently in but looking to leave in the next few years, a few pointers:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...dshows-uk.html
Emirates are sucking up a LOT of people with experience and type ratings right now. Unfortunately, I hear they arent recruiting mil aircrew, however, they still be recruiting UK experience, ahead of the big UK carriers picking up recruitment.
That will hopefully suck up capacity for the next snag the airlines have, namely, this:
Its no secret the recent contracts that many airlines have drawn up to prevent pilots paying 50% tax, that they have a demographics issue which is about to rear its head as the boomers approach retirement, combined with a globally expanding airline industry. The FT are expecting global pilot numbers to double over the next 15 years.
I have a number of years left to go. I will be preparing for both airline based and corporate work.
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...dshows-uk.html
Emirates are sucking up a LOT of people with experience and type ratings right now. Unfortunately, I hear they arent recruiting mil aircrew, however, they still be recruiting UK experience, ahead of the big UK carriers picking up recruitment.
That will hopefully suck up capacity for the next snag the airlines have, namely, this:
Its no secret the recent contracts that many airlines have drawn up to prevent pilots paying 50% tax, that they have a demographics issue which is about to rear its head as the boomers approach retirement, combined with a globally expanding airline industry. The FT are expecting global pilot numbers to double over the next 15 years.
I have a number of years left to go. I will be preparing for both airline based and corporate work.
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Vin Rouge, How does a sugestion that there is good info on the Canada thread get transformed into your last beligerent post? Having spent a fair bit of time in the ME and able to get by in the local lingo my advice is read all one can and get all sides before you go, no recruiter is going to give all views on the situation, their job is to recruit, not get into discusions on the various merits of the job, thats the function of the likes of PPrune, a great site may I add!
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Sorry mate, thought you were slagging the Emirates for trying to wangle landing slots in Canada, which something our maple syrup eating cousins arent too happy about at the mo! 
That certainly isnt going to stop brit pilots working for them, especially when you look at their per diem rate tax free.
We have to face facts, the airline industry is truly global and if you want to secure a job, looking abroad has to be considered an option these days imho. I would also say this includes the corporate jobs market; its plain to see that the US/UK is in the descendant at the moment and the tiger economies are where its going to be at in the second decade of this century. You only need to see their capital reserves to figure that one out.
That certainly isnt going to stop brit pilots working for them, especially when you look at their per diem rate tax free.We have to face facts, the airline industry is truly global and if you want to secure a job, looking abroad has to be considered an option these days imho. I would also say this includes the corporate jobs market; its plain to see that the US/UK is in the descendant at the moment and the tiger economies are where its going to be at in the second decade of this century. You only need to see their capital reserves to figure that one out.
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Not at all Vin Rouge, belive me I as an ex company owner am fully aware of the Global shift taking place, in the case of the Emirates it wont I fear have the legs of say China or India, those going there should plan and put aside for a possible crash, indeed without some outside help recently to salvage their building industry it would be a very different story by now.As for the Emirates tying landing rights to other non relevent issues, its just an example of the gulf {no pun intended} between our two societies, I recently gave a talk to some headed over and was amazed as to how little the average Canadian grasps this point, the Brits having been involved with the ME for some time seem to be under no illusions in this regard. The hiring is starting to pick up with a vengence in Canada these days, wonder how many having put aside some funds will be returning to Canada? I know of at least two of my ex employees who are on the way back across the pond, {Just in time for Winter} As to the original subject, that is ex military pilots getting jobs, in Canada they are looked upon as very good types to hire, just cant figure the mindset of those who treat them as not the right material, my experience has been anything but this.
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Great post SARBOY!
As one who decided to leave in the mid 90s cull, I also try to give ex military guuys a chance and have had no failures so far. However, I have interviewed guys who really do have a 'superiority attitude'.
One word of advice; flying aircraft - or even being around them - is NOT the be all and end all of life. Flying aircraft in 'civvy' street is not the same. It is not 'fun' it is a bloody tough way of making a living. Think about re-skilling and taking a totally different direction.
I did and currently earn more than a BA captain and probably have more fun. For those in List 1 trades in the RAF with a bent for chemistry, the oil and petrochem world is crying out for good instrument technicians. For others, don't dismiss training in the corporate world. Most of us did some in the military and most of us were bloody good at it.
In any case; good luck to all.
As one who decided to leave in the mid 90s cull, I also try to give ex military guuys a chance and have had no failures so far. However, I have interviewed guys who really do have a 'superiority attitude'.
One word of advice; flying aircraft - or even being around them - is NOT the be all and end all of life. Flying aircraft in 'civvy' street is not the same. It is not 'fun' it is a bloody tough way of making a living. Think about re-skilling and taking a totally different direction.
I did and currently earn more than a BA captain and probably have more fun. For those in List 1 trades in the RAF with a bent for chemistry, the oil and petrochem world is crying out for good instrument technicians. For others, don't dismiss training in the corporate world. Most of us did some in the military and most of us were bloody good at it.
In any case; good luck to all.
I agree strongly about the need for ex-mil folk to go "networking". It's also important to keep totally flexible in outlook and to retain an air of confidence whilst trying to be humble (I know the latter can be a problem for some 
).
Having left the military almost seventeen years ago, I have been lucky enough to be in full-time aviation employment ever since, in four different jobs. I only had to reply to an advert for one of them. My present employer came asking for me, on a recommendation.
).Having left the military almost seventeen years ago, I have been lucky enough to be in full-time aviation employment ever since, in four different jobs. I only had to reply to an advert for one of them. My present employer came asking for me, on a recommendation.
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I work for a LCC based in UK and have done so for the last 11 years. When I joined I had 2200 hrs light rotary experience. "The panel" consisted of 3. 1 ex FAA , 1 ex RAF and 1 HR civilian. I was extremely lucky and spent most of the interview being slagged off for being an ex pongo etc etc. At least there was common ground.
Now we recruit through training organizations , CTC and the like , who have a product that is known, cheap and prepared to work for peanuts. The regulators- CAA and Union- BALPA are not prepared to address this exploitation of naive individuals who are prepared to risk all financially to fly a shiny jet and pop the ray bans on.
So with regard to civil aviation the ex military candidate is almost unheard of. Some Base Captains and Trainers are ex CTC cadets themselves and as with the rest of the civil sector they view military people as a strange breed with whom they have very little in common.
Good luck to all
Now we recruit through training organizations , CTC and the like , who have a product that is known, cheap and prepared to work for peanuts. The regulators- CAA and Union- BALPA are not prepared to address this exploitation of naive individuals who are prepared to risk all financially to fly a shiny jet and pop the ray bans on.
So with regard to civil aviation the ex military candidate is almost unheard of. Some Base Captains and Trainers are ex CTC cadets themselves and as with the rest of the civil sector they view military people as a strange breed with whom they have very little in common.
Good luck to all
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Blimey! I'm beginning to realise a strong argument for stepping aside from aviation. The sands are shifting! I guess time will tell if the well trodden path of Military to Civilian pilot as was; is resurrected or dies a death.
The affect of CTC et al should not to be underestimated. The problems facing the military pilot re-inventing themselves are only just beginning to surface. How many mil guys/gals will consider paying for their own type rating for the right-hand seat of a 2-bit loco...?
The ever-declining number of hours leavers have is massively disadvantageous in the dog-eat-dog outside market. Meanwhile, Emirates do not recognize military hours and BA/Virgin are looking to place only type-rated (largely non-mil I suggest) on the yawning-chasm that the legacy seniority list has become. Recognition for military skills and experience amongst the outside aviation community is one thing, but it is the beancounters and insurers that pull the strings in business.
Not meaning to be alarmist, but it's probably worth taking a healthy dose of realism at this stage, especially given that we're on the cusp of voluntary/compulsary redundancy. Natural wastage is probably enough to cause concern for many nearing exit points right now.
Ironically, as there relatively so few of us, everything may be okay...!
Hopefully.
The affect of CTC et al should not to be underestimated. The problems facing the military pilot re-inventing themselves are only just beginning to surface. How many mil guys/gals will consider paying for their own type rating for the right-hand seat of a 2-bit loco...?
The ever-declining number of hours leavers have is massively disadvantageous in the dog-eat-dog outside market. Meanwhile, Emirates do not recognize military hours and BA/Virgin are looking to place only type-rated (largely non-mil I suggest) on the yawning-chasm that the legacy seniority list has become. Recognition for military skills and experience amongst the outside aviation community is one thing, but it is the beancounters and insurers that pull the strings in business.
Not meaning to be alarmist, but it's probably worth taking a healthy dose of realism at this stage, especially given that we're on the cusp of voluntary/compulsary redundancy. Natural wastage is probably enough to cause concern for many nearing exit points right now.
Ironically, as there relatively so few of us, everything may be okay...!
Hopefully.
Last edited by indie cent; 23rd Oct 2010 at 21:04. Reason: 1st effort drivel.
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Is there life out of the cockpit?
There’s a fair bit of talk about there being a future outside of the cockpit. There definitely is.
After nearly 3 decades as a nav, I received plenty of helpful banter on the resettlement “do you want fries with that” lines when I was coming up to go (my choice incidentally). I attended the resettlement course, which apart from the CV stuff and interview technique wasn’t brilliant. The so-called resettlement advisors seemed to be in receipt of a bonus for every new teacher they recruited and I was never going to do that.
I networked my little socks off, then went off on a gap year. I grew a pony tail and beard and the networking paid off. Happily by interview time, I’d lost the pony tail and beard! A job in a defence technology company was duly offered. Since then I’ve had a couple of promotions, survived the culls and had a thoroughly good time. Oh and I got paid as well.
Your skills are transferable, both directly and indirectly. OK, it goes without saying that you should be able to communicate effectively, have some grasp of a number of areas of technology and be an excellent team player. However, the stuff you found out doing the Myers-Briggs test should work in your favour. Having learnt to stay calm when everything is going wrong in the cockpit is also a very useful tool. You’ll be amazed to see how people can spool up under pressure, even over fairly trivial stuff.
Team building is completely different, you can’t order someone to do something. At least, not if you want it doing properly. Building bridges with your team members and getting them to buy into what you’re doing is so different from the military way, but so rewarding. For me, that was the best bit about leaving.
Come on in the water’s lovely.
After nearly 3 decades as a nav, I received plenty of helpful banter on the resettlement “do you want fries with that” lines when I was coming up to go (my choice incidentally). I attended the resettlement course, which apart from the CV stuff and interview technique wasn’t brilliant. The so-called resettlement advisors seemed to be in receipt of a bonus for every new teacher they recruited and I was never going to do that.
I networked my little socks off, then went off on a gap year. I grew a pony tail and beard and the networking paid off. Happily by interview time, I’d lost the pony tail and beard! A job in a defence technology company was duly offered. Since then I’ve had a couple of promotions, survived the culls and had a thoroughly good time. Oh and I got paid as well.
Your skills are transferable, both directly and indirectly. OK, it goes without saying that you should be able to communicate effectively, have some grasp of a number of areas of technology and be an excellent team player. However, the stuff you found out doing the Myers-Briggs test should work in your favour. Having learnt to stay calm when everything is going wrong in the cockpit is also a very useful tool. You’ll be amazed to see how people can spool up under pressure, even over fairly trivial stuff.
Team building is completely different, you can’t order someone to do something. At least, not if you want it doing properly. Building bridges with your team members and getting them to buy into what you’re doing is so different from the military way, but so rewarding. For me, that was the best bit about leaving.
Come on in the water’s lovely.
