BAe job cuts - just the start?
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tucumseh.
Many people will say that the Bae top execs have no bottle, and make poor decisions.
I find this odd, bearing in mind you said they have:
"higher ups who will no doubt retire disgracefully with a whopping package."
That sounds like an exciting life. Do they retire with large pensions too
.
Many people will say that the Bae top execs have no bottle, and make poor decisions.
I find this odd, bearing in mind you said they have:
"higher ups who will no doubt retire disgracefully with a whopping package."
That sounds like an exciting life. Do they retire with large pensions too
.
641st
What you say is largely true (in my limited experience).
Going through your list the concept of “partnering” sprung to mind. When this was announced anyone with a CV longer than 3 half-day seminars (which was but a slack handful) knew what was coming. It would be used by MoD as an excuse to dumb down even more, relying on companies to provide the skill sets, lead MoD by the hand through contract negotiations, tell them what is wrong with the specs and so on. As you say, it doesn’t work because they are not a charity.
But I’d argue that many companies don’t “pay any penalties they incur”. Last time I tried to invoke a penalty clause I was told by one of the supine appeasers I mentioned that I must “leave the company (not BAeS, think France) alone or else they won’t make a profit on the job”. Where they were failing was something he thought irrelevant (yes, airworthiness and safety) so I ignored him. He promptly agreed a contract amendment to pay a few million to change the design (so that it complied with regs) when a price of £50k had already been agreed. How was this paid for? A yet-to-be-developed “highly desirable” design feature was sliced off the contract.
I have to say though, that the majority of companies I’ve dealt with (and that runs to hundreds) do not behave in this way. You tend to find it is the big ones. I specifically exclude Westland from this criticism. Nothing but admiration for the way they cope with the way they are treated by MoD.
What you say is largely true (in my limited experience).
Going through your list the concept of “partnering” sprung to mind. When this was announced anyone with a CV longer than 3 half-day seminars (which was but a slack handful) knew what was coming. It would be used by MoD as an excuse to dumb down even more, relying on companies to provide the skill sets, lead MoD by the hand through contract negotiations, tell them what is wrong with the specs and so on. As you say, it doesn’t work because they are not a charity.
But I’d argue that many companies don’t “pay any penalties they incur”. Last time I tried to invoke a penalty clause I was told by one of the supine appeasers I mentioned that I must “leave the company (not BAeS, think France) alone or else they won’t make a profit on the job”. Where they were failing was something he thought irrelevant (yes, airworthiness and safety) so I ignored him. He promptly agreed a contract amendment to pay a few million to change the design (so that it complied with regs) when a price of £50k had already been agreed. How was this paid for? A yet-to-be-developed “highly desirable” design feature was sliced off the contract.
I have to say though, that the majority of companies I’ve dealt with (and that runs to hundreds) do not behave in this way. You tend to find it is the big ones. I specifically exclude Westland from this criticism. Nothing but admiration for the way they cope with the way they are treated by MoD.
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Ah, tucumseh; you beat me to it. Remember this document? [ARCHIVED CONTENT] Procurement and Industry
We are all "partners" now.
It's really SMART.
We are all "partners" now.
It's really SMART.
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Not Just BAE
Two`s In, are you really so naive as to believe other defence suppliers from the US , France etc. do not offer any inducements, financial or otherwise; in order to sell their wares? By the way, this is accepted practice in some parts of the world. BAE were pursued with vigour on this matter by the US.
Was it that the US wanted to scupper Typhoon sales to Saudi, or am I just growing cynical as I get older ?
Was it that the US wanted to scupper Typhoon sales to Saudi, or am I just growing cynical as I get older ?
GBZ
Stop it. I'm having palpatations just thinking about that nonsense. When they introduced "Smart Procurement" we were told it was "embarrassing" that projects could be delivered to time, cost and performance (or better) using an "old" process. Suddenly the word was to delay projects that were on target, as meeting the ISD set the bar too high and Users would expect it all the time. (Unreasonable lot, aren't they?).
Beags
Thanks. Explains a lot, doesn't it? (Sorry folks, thread drift).
Stop it. I'm having palpatations just thinking about that nonsense. When they introduced "Smart Procurement" we were told it was "embarrassing" that projects could be delivered to time, cost and performance (or better) using an "old" process. Suddenly the word was to delay projects that were on target, as meeting the ISD set the bar too high and Users would expect it all the time. (Unreasonable lot, aren't they?).
Beags
Thanks. Explains a lot, doesn't it? (Sorry folks, thread drift).
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Tucumseh has, as is often the case, hit the nail quite squarely.
As for the trough/pig issue -
It isn't just 'wrong', it's actually a bit stupid to blame BAE for doing whatever they can to improve the lot of BAE - and it's more than naive to suggest that offending British fraud guidelines when dealing with middle eastern government procurement outfits is somehow wrong...when everyone else cheats it's bloody stupid to play by a set of rules nobody else is playing by.
If our own procurement system were more robust, and staffed by people who had half a brain and only limited veniality, then we'd get what we needed at the right (ish) price. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime I reckon...
As for the trough/pig issue -
It isn't just 'wrong', it's actually a bit stupid to blame BAE for doing whatever they can to improve the lot of BAE - and it's more than naive to suggest that offending British fraud guidelines when dealing with middle eastern government procurement outfits is somehow wrong...when everyone else cheats it's bloody stupid to play by a set of rules nobody else is playing by.
If our own procurement system were more robust, and staffed by people who had half a brain and only limited veniality, then we'd get what we needed at the right (ish) price. Ain't gonna happen in my lifetime I reckon...
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By the way, this is accepted practice in some parts of the world. BAE were pursued with vigour on this matter by the US. Was it that the US wanted to scupper Typhoon sales to Saudi, or am I just growing cynical as I get older ?
Hence the help the Serious Fraud Office received from the USA regarding BAE backhanders to the Saudi Royals.
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Keeping well away from the bribes that may go on...and coming back to the competence/engineering capability of the Company...
I have no disrespect for the Engineers at BAES, who are more than competent at doing their jobs...but they can only do what they are told...and I think they are often told not to think too much at an engineering level...and more on the Company profit level...
As for MOD moving the "goal posts"....this is more to do with..."Okay we are late...but we will give you this extra in a few months time"
I have no disrespect for the Engineers at BAES, who are more than competent at doing their jobs...but they can only do what they are told...and I think they are often told not to think too much at an engineering level...and more on the Company profit level...
As for MOD moving the "goal posts"....this is more to do with..."Okay we are late...but we will give you this extra in a few months time"
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Having worked both sides of the fence, and been one of those on the flight line complaining about the civillians, I have to say I know now what they are up against. I've worked on a number of projects which, because of the complexity of the work involved, have lasted more than a few years before the product is delivered. One of the problems we've had to face is the fact that the face of the customer tends to change with regularity as each new incumbant is posted in and the old one moves off to pastures new. Not that the old one necessarily did a bad job, but the new one has his (or her) own idea of what they want, and does not necessarily understand what the old one had in mind.
Time and time again we see a change in requirements, schedules etc, yet we as the engineers have to make do as best we can.
Much as I hate to say it, the civvy companies are there to make money and keep the shareholders sweet. I get a little hot under the collar with those who are currently serving and do not appear to underastand that the majority of us (and many of my current and former colleagues are ex-servicemen and women) know what you need, want to give you what you need, but what you need is not necessarily what your masters asked for or what our managment are prepared to give.
2p supplied, can I have a receipt please
Time and time again we see a change in requirements, schedules etc, yet we as the engineers have to make do as best we can.
Much as I hate to say it, the civvy companies are there to make money and keep the shareholders sweet. I get a little hot under the collar with those who are currently serving and do not appear to underastand that the majority of us (and many of my current and former colleagues are ex-servicemen and women) know what you need, want to give you what you need, but what you need is not necessarily what your masters asked for or what our managment are prepared to give.
2p supplied, can I have a receipt please
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http://www.baesystems.com/Newsroom/NewsReleases/autoGen_11081519556.html
“…a retirement home for retired senior MoD staffs, ...” Post #17.
Not just MOD….. It must work…
“…a retirement home for retired senior MoD staffs, ...” Post #17.
Not just MOD….. It must work…
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There is a huge amount of spare capacity in the company that could do with being axed, but it will be the wrong people that go. As has already been said the senior managers will take care of themselves and get rid of the life blood of the organisation.
