Astro Navigation
Travelling light, it would be easier carrying spare batteries for your GPS.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
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I remember a conversation between a certain ASCOT (VC10 C Mk 1) callsign and Jax centre when we were operating MZBZ - KIAD in the early 80's and it seemed that we were the only aircraft in the night sky.
Jax centre: "Ascot 2276 are you area nav equipped?'
Ascot 2276: "Well, we have LORAN, OMEGA and a Navigator with a sun gun."
Jax centre. "Good enough. Cleared direct ARMEL TACAN (800+ nm). Be advised RUMOURS bar is staying open pending your arrival."
Happy days.
Jax centre: "Ascot 2276 are you area nav equipped?'
Ascot 2276: "Well, we have LORAN, OMEGA and a Navigator with a sun gun."
Jax centre. "Good enough. Cleared direct ARMEL TACAN (800+ nm). Be advised RUMOURS bar is staying open pending your arrival."
Happy days.
For anyone who has more than a passing interest in astro navigation, I can thoroughly recommend Emergency Navigation by David Burch, International Marine Publishing Company, ISBN 0-87742-204-4
How to find out where you are and get where you want to go without compass, sextant or electronic instruments. This is the book you need when all else fails
Finding South
Would someone remind me of the rule of thumb for using an analogue watch to locate south by the sun. (Sun, tenuous astro link!)
Something like: Point the little hand at the sun, bisect the angle between the big and little hand- voila. Is it true? Do you bisect the obtuse angle, or the reflex when more than 90? And did you need local time? Ta.
CG
Something like: Point the little hand at the sun, bisect the angle between the big and little hand- voila. Is it true? Do you bisect the obtuse angle, or the reflex when more than 90? And did you need local time? Ta.
CG
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: definitely not close enough to the Alps, or anywhere hilly.....
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Nearly right, bisect the angle between the hour hand and 12 o'clock on the watch, and you have the North-South line; depending on your hemisphere, and whether it is am or pm, you then have 50% chance of guessing correctly!
But if you have a digital watch....
But if you have a digital watch....
Every single Officer in the RN and RFA who hold a Navigational Watch Certificate can conduct astro-nav, including sun, moon and planets in every combination required. I navigated across the Atlantic on a Warship using astro only 30 months ago. And I found the place I was going!
I navigated across the Atlantic on a Warship using astro only 30 months ago. And I found the place I was going!
So there you go TTN, if you do happen to find yourself wandering round the outback, tis easy enough to work out where you are using only a McGyver-eque bit of wood and nails, protractor a radio and a watch.
Used to quite enjoy astro, but was never much good at it.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Ah but therein lies a trick. A good navigator knows where the hour hand on an analogue watch would be given the time on his digital watch so he can align a virtual hour hand and bemuse mere mortals.
And before anyone says that real navigators don't use digital watches, that may be true today with accurate quartz or radio controlled analogue models but in the 80s only a digital watch was really accurate as analogue quartz were rare.
And before anyone says that real navigators don't use digital watches, that may be true today with accurate quartz or radio controlled analogue models but in the 80s only a digital watch was really accurate as analogue quartz were rare.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sneaking up on the Runway and leaping out to grab it unawares
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IIRC Astro training was binned for Gp2 Nav studes around the time that Finningley closed and the school moved to Cranwell.
Looking at my logbook, my last Dominie flight doing Astro was 30 October 1995 (a DM19 with 434 Cse).
Shortly after this, with the introduction of the new Dominie nav/radar fit, the Gp2 (ANTS) course was re-written to include an introduction to low level maritime work and most of the high level trog-exs also disappeared.
Looking at my logbook, my last Dominie flight doing Astro was 30 October 1995 (a DM19 with 434 Cse).
Shortly after this, with the introduction of the new Dominie nav/radar fit, the Gp2 (ANTS) course was re-written to include an introduction to low level maritime work and most of the high level trog-exs also disappeared.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Portsmouth
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Celestial navigation is still taught (at a very basic level) to all Royal Navy Warfare Officers. Depending upon the Navigating Officer of the vessel in which they watchkeep, they will be given further on-job training.
I certainly ensured that all Young Officers and Junior Officers' of the Watch did regular sights: morning and evening sights, sun-run-sun, moonsights etc. With practice it was more than achievable to take 5 or 6 star sights and get a position accurate to within less than a cable.
It always amused me when a student would come out with a position 4,500 nm out. It took a bit of explaining that any celestial fix will produce two possible positions. One at (or near) your actual position, and one on the corresponding opposite side of the earth.
Good times.
(Never used it in an aircraft)
I certainly ensured that all Young Officers and Junior Officers' of the Watch did regular sights: morning and evening sights, sun-run-sun, moonsights etc. With practice it was more than achievable to take 5 or 6 star sights and get a position accurate to within less than a cable.
It always amused me when a student would come out with a position 4,500 nm out. It took a bit of explaining that any celestial fix will produce two possible positions. One at (or near) your actual position, and one on the corresponding opposite side of the earth.
Good times.
(Never used it in an aircraft)
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sneaking up on the Runway and leaping out to grab it unawares
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I often think that binning Astro was a retrograde step since it gave a layer of 'belts 'n' braces'.
I remember being about 1000 miles out over the ogsplash in the early hours of a Sunday morning in the late '80's hunting a Victor 2.
Weather was punk and you could see the St Elmo's fire building on the windscreen wipers (let alone hear the increased static in the headset).
Very soon after there was an almighty bang from a lightning strike. Compasses went down, E2B was spinning like a mad thing and the CTS went down (and wouldn't reboot).
We got home based upon the Nav's ability to give us steers via the sun gun.
I remember being about 1000 miles out over the ogsplash in the early hours of a Sunday morning in the late '80's hunting a Victor 2.
Weather was punk and you could see the St Elmo's fire building on the windscreen wipers (let alone hear the increased static in the headset).
Very soon after there was an almighty bang from a lightning strike. Compasses went down, E2B was spinning like a mad thing and the CTS went down (and wouldn't reboot).
We got home based upon the Nav's ability to give us steers via the sun gun.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Erehwon
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Anyone remember Rog Howe?
The only Nav I ever saw on the Herc that didn't need the Astro stool!
He used to say he was 5ft 20.
We used to laugh on the trimotor that we had 3 navs who told us where we were rather than where we'd just been
The only Nav I ever saw on the Herc that didn't need the Astro stool!
He used to say he was 5ft 20.
We used to laugh on the trimotor that we had 3 navs who told us where we were rather than where we'd just been
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ExA, there will always be times when 'obsolete' techniques are the only ones that work. One very early nav stude trip, about Ex 2 or 3, the Dominie kit went TU. We had DME and compasses and radio. Anything that needed 400Hz was unuseable.
Now the modern get-out-of-jail card is the simple "Pan Pan Pan". Instead I hoiked the stude out of the seat, quick double DME fix and set up with a manual airplot. 20 minutes, quick wind, DR ahead, heading for the entry point etc etc.
Bliss
Now the modern get-out-of-jail card is the simple "Pan Pan Pan". Instead I hoiked the stude out of the seat, quick double DME fix and set up with a manual airplot. 20 minutes, quick wind, DR ahead, heading for the entry point etc etc.
Bliss
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sneaking up on the Runway and leaping out to grab it unawares
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INDEED PN!
Aaaah Manual Air Plot - the bane of Nav Studes, and terrifying to us Dominie Pilots with F all nav kit up front!
I became VERY good at rapid triple VOR fixes!
Aaaah Manual Air Plot - the bane of Nav Studes, and terrifying to us Dominie Pilots with F all nav kit up front!
I became VERY good at rapid triple VOR fixes!
I remember a bunch of guys at Seletar oohing and aaahing around something one of them had spread out on a plotting table. Assuming it was the latest Playboy I went across for a look. It was the bloke's manual airplot done on a recent trip from Seletar to Gan in a Beverley.
Work of art it was !
Work of art it was !
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: On the Bay, Vic, Oz
Age: 80
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TTN, reminds me of a trip I did in a Bubbly early '67 as SLF. It was a nav exercise from Seletar to Cocos Isles, thence to Port Hedland, Oz, and on to Alice Springs and Laverton, Melbourne. I very much doubt that they had a single external nav aid to assist, but they got there. Mind you we did spend more than a few days in the Cocos waiting parts to fix the Bubbly after she broke.
The calcualtions are easy now. All you need is a Texas TI86 programmable calculator and this software StarPilot-86 Calculator Not for the purists, but it works.