F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Yeah. Directional antennae and broad spectrum. I refer the honourable gentleman to the F-22.
Broad spectrum doesn't truly equate to LPI any more. After all, if (for example) the little box next to your computer can do it, so can a radio.
Broad spectrum doesn't truly equate to LPI any more. After all, if (for example) the little box next to your computer can do it, so can a radio.
and again JSFfan , which branch of the military have you served or are serving in?
The issue with the F-35 (and with the F-22 once it gets L-16 transmit, due in 2014 with Increment 3.2A) is that you are on the network (outside your four-ship) or stealthy, but not both at the same time.
And as you move towards the next stage in net-centric, where instead of broadcasting all the time, every node transmits on demand (for instance, a "search" goes out for anyone whose sensors were on a given set of coordinates in the past few hours) the problem gets more interesting.
A networked stealth aircraft is like a ninja with Tourette's.
And as you move towards the next stage in net-centric, where instead of broadcasting all the time, every node transmits on demand (for instance, a "search" goes out for anyone whose sensors were on a given set of coordinates in the past few hours) the problem gets more interesting.
A networked stealth aircraft is like a ninja with Tourette's.
A networked stealth aircraft is like a ninja with Tourette's.
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Originally Posted by LO
stopped trying to compare fighter prices based on package-deal prices years ago, because deals are so different - mostly, it depends what support is included and for how long, or whether it's an initial buy or a top-up (cf $3.7 billion for 12+12 Hornet/Growler for Oz).
CM - Speaking from an Australian perspective, the following items are all included in our AIR6000 budget...
All of our fighter bases except Amberley require major refurbishment in order to be able to accommodate a new fighter, whether it be F-35, Super Hornet or whatever. This includes new wing & squadron HQs, hangars, maintenance facilities, warehouses, training facilities, associated ramps and taxiways, weapons stores etc at Williamtown and Tindal which are permanent bases, as well as Townsville, Learmonth, Curtin and Sherger which are austere bases. This is expected to cost several billion.
There are also simulators and other aircrew and maintenance synthetic training devices which will cost several hundred million.
There is the initial basing & training in the US at Eglin or (more likely) Luke AFB for our first few aircraft and crews, and maintenance training at Eglin - several hundred million more.
On top of this is the usual tech pubs, initial spares holdings, initial training, initial weapons stocks, delivery and ferry costs, and everything else that goes with a fleet of up to 100 (but more likely 70-80) new fighters.
The AIR6000 budget is about A$16bn, and confidence is high that we can come in within this figure. So using the logic of others that extrapolates to $160m per aircraft, but will more likely be $90-$100m per aircraft when all other costs are figured in.
Lets say, worse case scenario (and leaving the much greater capability of the F-35 aside), if an F-35 costs $20 million more than a Gripen, or $10 million more than a Super Hornet (which is about right), then the initial cost difference for 80-100 aircraft is a small percentage of the overall amount you will spend up front, let alone over the life of type of the aircraft.
Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 29th Apr 2013 at 00:04.
FA - "and yet you chose not to challenge that statement."
Really, you're beginning to sound like my ex. You don't want to do that.
Good luck with your plans. However, the comment
"and $10 million more than a Super Hornet (which is about right)"
is a bit optimistic. You get close to that with a 2023 delivery, based on everything going to plan and a 200/year production rate which, for various reasons, ain't gonna happen in the timespan of the Oz requirement. You can look up the projections in the Oz buy years for yourself in the SAR and compare them to the URFC and APUC for the SH.
Really, you're beginning to sound like my ex. You don't want to do that.
Good luck with your plans. However, the comment
"and $10 million more than a Super Hornet (which is about right)"
is a bit optimistic. You get close to that with a 2023 delivery, based on everything going to plan and a 200/year production rate which, for various reasons, ain't gonna happen in the timespan of the Oz requirement. You can look up the projections in the Oz buy years for yourself in the SAR and compare them to the URFC and APUC for the SH.
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http://www.dod.gov/pubs/foi/logistic...DEC%202011.pdf
page 17 line 2012 for year 2012 dollars
the SH is $66.6m plus FLIR pod, HMD, night googles and probably another few things I'm unaware of
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae...-3-29-2012.pdf
for 2012 year dollars page 39 and 54 line 2018 then add together
the f-35 for 2018 is $72.5m including FLIR and IRST along with EODAS and HMD
$72.5 - $66.6 = $5.9m ..lets round it off to $6m even without adding the costs of the pods. helmet and googles etc to the SH
going by SAR the ramp up drops the price in 2018 to... f-35 is $6m dearer than the SH and both the JPO and LM say they can get the f-35 price lower
please check my maths
page 17 line 2012 for year 2012 dollars
the SH is $66.6m plus FLIR pod, HMD, night googles and probably another few things I'm unaware of
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae...-3-29-2012.pdf
for 2012 year dollars page 39 and 54 line 2018 then add together
the f-35 for 2018 is $72.5m including FLIR and IRST along with EODAS and HMD
$72.5 - $66.6 = $5.9m ..lets round it off to $6m even without adding the costs of the pods. helmet and googles etc to the SH
going by SAR the ramp up drops the price in 2018 to... f-35 is $6m dearer than the SH and both the JPO and LM say they can get the f-35 price lower
please check my maths
Last edited by JSFfan; 29th Apr 2013 at 03:30.
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JSFfan...just...just...
*sigh*
Firstly, Super Hornet doesn't come with IRST, plus that's a two year old report of what is probably three year old information.
Secondly, It was widely reported that PEO GEN Bogdan told Australian media at the Avalon Airshow on February 28 that he expects an MYP F-35A to ballpark around US$92m including engine. Information given to Australian program officials and decision makers on the same visit mirrors this number.
I realise this is a long way from the ~$50m numbers being bandied around in the early days, but it's also a lot less than some of the numbers being thrown about by the doomsayers too.
Regardless of what Boeing says, you won't get much change out of US$83m for an FMS F/A-18F including EO/IR pod, tanks, pylons, LAUs, RWR etc.
But as I and others have already stated, we need to stop looking at the unit cost and look instead at the project cost. e.g...
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...orea_13-10.pdf & http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...alia_13-05.pdf
Look at what these proposals include...you can see that the Korean F-35As won't cost $180m each any more than the Australian Super Hornets will cost $154m each. PLUS, Australia already has Super Hornet infrastructure and training devices & syllabus in place, whereas the Koreans are starting their F-35 fleet from scratch.
*sigh* Firstly, Super Hornet doesn't come with IRST, plus that's a two year old report of what is probably three year old information.
Secondly, It was widely reported that PEO GEN Bogdan told Australian media at the Avalon Airshow on February 28 that he expects an MYP F-35A to ballpark around US$92m including engine. Information given to Australian program officials and decision makers on the same visit mirrors this number.
I realise this is a long way from the ~$50m numbers being bandied around in the early days, but it's also a lot less than some of the numbers being thrown about by the doomsayers too.
Regardless of what Boeing says, you won't get much change out of US$83m for an FMS F/A-18F including EO/IR pod, tanks, pylons, LAUs, RWR etc.
But as I and others have already stated, we need to stop looking at the unit cost and look instead at the project cost. e.g...
http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...orea_13-10.pdf & http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36...alia_13-05.pdf
Look at what these proposals include...you can see that the Korean F-35As won't cost $180m each any more than the Australian Super Hornets will cost $154m each. PLUS, Australia already has Super Hornet infrastructure and training devices & syllabus in place, whereas the Koreans are starting their F-35 fleet from scratch.
Last edited by FoxtrotAlpha18; 29th Apr 2013 at 03:17.
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the new/planned IRST fuel pod, the reason I used the plural term pods and they are the latest SAR
the ~$83m f-35 is a then year dollar URF of 2020 IIRC, it is stated in the cost report just recently done for the AU gov, LINK is on this thread somewhere and our total acquisition was around $139m
if you looked...both the SH and F-35 is in unit recurring flyaway URF and not a 'delivered' price to australia
the ~$83m f-35 is a then year dollar URF of 2020 IIRC, it is stated in the cost report just recently done for the AU gov, LINK is on this thread somewhere and our total acquisition was around $139m
if you looked...both the SH and F-35 is in unit recurring flyaway URF and not a 'delivered' price to australia
Last edited by JSFfan; 29th Apr 2013 at 03:25.
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The IRST pod has not been ordered and (LO may know more), may not even be funded for acquisition by the Navy yet.
No, I can assure you it was for the F-35A!
Originally Posted by JSFf&%$#
my guess is he used the average of the A, B and C to get the $93m
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ok, if you don't like the IRST pod I'll remove it, heck even thouigh I haven't seen the ADF/gov mention $93m I'll remove that too, though he has just told the dutch the 2012Y$ urf is 75m and the 2020y$ urf is 85m..so his 93m doesnt fit
it still doesnt change the 2012$ URF SAR of SH $66.6m and the f-35A of $73.5m
but you should look up the aussie cost report for "the ~$83m f-35 is a then year dollar URF of 2020 IIRC, it is stated in the cost report just recently done for the AU gov, LINK is on this thread somewhere and our total acquisition was around $139m"
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...,d.aGc&cad=rja
I looked it up, procurement $123.6m, aquisition is $134.1M then year dollars or $83.4 million in 2019Y$ URF or $73.5m in 2012Y$ URF
Amounts (then-year US$)
Under JSF SDD MoU
JSF development
Australian unique requirements
Project costs and purchase of 100 F-35A aircraft (as
at February 2012), subject to government approval $12 362 million
Estimated shared costs (as at December 2011)
—Production
—Sustainment
—Follow-on development
Partner Reprogramming Laboratory
Total $13 210.62 million -$.62m plus $200m = $13 410.00 or $134.1m ea
it still doesnt change the 2012$ URF SAR of SH $66.6m and the f-35A of $73.5m
but you should look up the aussie cost report for "the ~$83m f-35 is a then year dollar URF of 2020 IIRC, it is stated in the cost report just recently done for the AU gov, LINK is on this thread somewhere and our total acquisition was around $139m"
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rc...,d.aGc&cad=rja
I looked it up, procurement $123.6m, aquisition is $134.1M then year dollars or $83.4 million in 2019Y$ URF or $73.5m in 2012Y$ URF
Amounts (then-year US$)
Under JSF SDD MoU
JSF development
Australian unique requirements
Project costs and purchase of 100 F-35A aircraft (as
at February 2012), subject to government approval $12 362 million
Estimated shared costs (as at December 2011)
—Production
—Sustainment
—Follow-on development
Partner Reprogramming Laboratory
Total $13 210.62 million -$.62m plus $200m = $13 410.00 or $134.1m ea
Last edited by JSFfan; 29th Apr 2013 at 07:41.
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fox can answer for himself, but why don't you show why it is bull****? you won't look so silly
I showed the SH and F-35 on the last page
I showed the SH and F-35 on the last page
Last edited by JSFfan; 29th Apr 2013 at 11:25.
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Why? Because the US paid 2013$21 billion for 210 aircraft back in 2000, with said bells and whistles included. And the most recent contract for 182 F18/EA18 came in at 2013$16 billion, again with said bells and whistles included.
Meanwhile, Norway buys 6 aircraft for $2.2 billion and are expected to shell out 5 times that to get a measely 50
Meanwhile, Norway buys 6 aircraft for $2.2 billion and are expected to shell out 5 times that to get a measely 50
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japan is setting up their own production line..dear isn't it
or are you talking about a small lrip buy and a lot of the ancillery for the total fleet spead over a few frames, like norway?
a number by itself means nothing...it's like the 100m for a f-15..what price is that? I think it might be a flyaway
did you notice I gave a full explanation with credable links on the last page?
or are you talking about a small lrip buy and a lot of the ancillery for the total fleet spead over a few frames, like norway?
a number by itself means nothing...it's like the 100m for a f-15..what price is that? I think it might be a flyaway
did you notice I gave a full explanation with credable links on the last page?
Last edited by JSFfan; 29th Apr 2013 at 12:59.