F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Middle America
Age: 79
Posts: 1,147
Brat,
I think you are having trouble identifying successful aircraft programs from not so successful aircraft programs. Successful programs deliver excellent products as advertised and on time. Not so successful programs deliver marginal products late.
From history for example, there were two successful programs that developed aircraft in a timely manner and maintained their technological advantages against adversaries of their day.
The P-51 Mustang was designed in 1940 and 102 days later the first aircraft flew. By 1943, it was flying bomber escort missions over Germany and in early 1944 was flying combat missions. Over 15,000 were produced at a unit cost of $50,985 in 1945 $$$s. It was used in the early stages of the Korean War which started in 1950, until the F-86 took over. This is a definition of a successful program. Had the P-51 been developed on the F-35 timeline, it wouldn’t have been ready for combat until after the Korean War was over besides being obsoleted by the F-86 Sabre.
In 1945, design of what was to become the F-86 commenced. The first flight occurred in 1947 and the USAF had them in inventory starting in 1949 and early 1950. It became the primary combat fighter in the Korean War. 9,800 F-86 combat jets were produced at a typical unit cost of $219,460. It was the first American aircraft to have swept wings, an axial-flow J47 jet engine and the ability to break the sound barrier. Had the F-86 been developed on the F-35 timeline, it might have been good to go for the Vietnam War. These were two successful programs that developed aircraft in a timely manner, maintaining their technological advantages against adversaries of their day, there were others as well.
The F-16 & F-15 programs are good examples of more modern day successful programs. Sadly, the F-35 program is not a successful program, much like the F-111 program wasn’t that resulted in only 563 of all the variants being built and none for the USN that was one half the original program intent.
Whatever the numerous technological advantages being claimed for the F-35 some have been compromised by excessive time to the marketplace, e.g., real combat readiness with all the bells and whistles working as they should be. Excessive time always indicates excessive costs, failure to have had a robust risk management program to sort out a reliable technology path and a meaningful timeline forward.
It certainly is interesting to see four new F-35 aircraft sitting in the UK supposedly on the way to Israel, gifted by the US to Israel. The US gives a military support package to Israel that provides an average of $3.8 billion a year over the next decade, already the largest recipient of American aid, including financing for missile defense systems that defend against rockets fired by nearby adversary groups. Under a previous 10-year agreement that expires in 2018, the United States provided about $3 billion a year, but lately Congress has added up to $500 million a year for missile defense. Also, the Israelis can now use some of the money provided to buy military items from their own military industries, something that wasn't permitted in past agreements. The Israelis will no doubt put some of this money to use improving the capability of their new F-35s. They are extremely good at improvement technologies and they will accomplish it at a speed far greater than LM could or will. The Israeli Air Force will have the most advance F-35s long before anyone else and we might see how good they perform in actual combat...
George, your post above is nothing BUT a huge insulting whinge and whine.
From history for example, there were two successful programs that developed aircraft in a timely manner and maintained their technological advantages against adversaries of their day.
The P-51 Mustang was designed in 1940 and 102 days later the first aircraft flew. By 1943, it was flying bomber escort missions over Germany and in early 1944 was flying combat missions. Over 15,000 were produced at a unit cost of $50,985 in 1945 $$$s. It was used in the early stages of the Korean War which started in 1950, until the F-86 took over. This is a definition of a successful program. Had the P-51 been developed on the F-35 timeline, it wouldn’t have been ready for combat until after the Korean War was over besides being obsoleted by the F-86 Sabre.
In 1945, design of what was to become the F-86 commenced. The first flight occurred in 1947 and the USAF had them in inventory starting in 1949 and early 1950. It became the primary combat fighter in the Korean War. 9,800 F-86 combat jets were produced at a typical unit cost of $219,460. It was the first American aircraft to have swept wings, an axial-flow J47 jet engine and the ability to break the sound barrier. Had the F-86 been developed on the F-35 timeline, it might have been good to go for the Vietnam War. These were two successful programs that developed aircraft in a timely manner, maintaining their technological advantages against adversaries of their day, there were others as well.
The F-16 & F-15 programs are good examples of more modern day successful programs. Sadly, the F-35 program is not a successful program, much like the F-111 program wasn’t that resulted in only 563 of all the variants being built and none for the USN that was one half the original program intent.
Whatever the numerous technological advantages being claimed for the F-35 some have been compromised by excessive time to the marketplace, e.g., real combat readiness with all the bells and whistles working as they should be. Excessive time always indicates excessive costs, failure to have had a robust risk management program to sort out a reliable technology path and a meaningful timeline forward.
It certainly is interesting to see four new F-35 aircraft sitting in the UK supposedly on the way to Israel, gifted by the US to Israel. The US gives a military support package to Israel that provides an average of $3.8 billion a year over the next decade, already the largest recipient of American aid, including financing for missile defense systems that defend against rockets fired by nearby adversary groups. Under a previous 10-year agreement that expires in 2018, the United States provided about $3 billion a year, but lately Congress has added up to $500 million a year for missile defense. Also, the Israelis can now use some of the money provided to buy military items from their own military industries, something that wasn't permitted in past agreements. The Israelis will no doubt put some of this money to use improving the capability of their new F-35s. They are extremely good at improvement technologies and they will accomplish it at a speed far greater than LM could or will. The Israeli Air Force will have the most advance F-35s long before anyone else and we might see how good they perform in actual combat...
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: South Skerry
Posts: 305
JN - Threshold Block 3 weapons for the B remain AIM-120C AMRAAM (internal), AIM-9X/ASRAAM (external), 2k JDAM (internal) and 500lb Paveway (either). According to Defense News, the UK jets will use the remaining ASRAAM current versions until they are replaced by the CAMM-based CSP in 2022. As long as the current inventory of AMRAAMs includes C-models, they will fit. I have no idea whether the UK is buying gun pods.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,633
Originally Posted by Jackonicko
This picture raised a few questions in my mind
What current inventory weapons are currently cleared on the UK F-35B apart from Paveway IV? Has the UK acquired any of the weapons currently used by US F-35s? Is ASRAAM still cleared for external carriage only (eg in non-stealthy configuration)? Does the UK have any examples of the right variant of AMRAAM for internal carriage? When will the gun pod be available, and has the UK acquired any?
Weapons, 4 bombs and SRAAM.
Hmm..internal carriage on the "B" Hmmmmm it's gone very quiet on that over the last year or so, well apart from AMRAAM fails to provide confidence in it's operation and the $52,000,000 Contract for the development and INTEGRATION of the SDB.
Who'd have thought it.# 1
Oh and..
Lockheed Martin Selects Raytheon To Deliver Next Generation F-35 Sensor System
The Raytheon-built DAS will be integrated into F-35 aircraft starting with Lot 15 aircraft, expected to begin deliveries in 2023.
Who'd have thought it # 2...
Last edited by glad rag; 20th Jun 2018 at 22:04.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under a recently defunct flight path.
Age: 72
Posts: 1,016
Lockheed Martin to deliver first F-35A to Turkey next week
(Flight Global)
Lockheed Martin plans to formally deliver an F-35A Lighting II to Turkey in a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas on 21 June, despite protests by US lawmakers and diplomats.
The F-35A will remain in the USA until Turkish pilots are trained to operate the aircraft, upon which time it will be flown to Turkey.
However, US representatives and senators have objected to Turkey receiving the state-of-the-art stealth fighter after the country signed a contract with Russia to buy the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf system, one of the most advanced surface-to-air missile systems on the export market. It's advertised by Rosoboronexport with an "anti-stealth range" up to 81nm (150km).
Lawmakers and State Department officials have also complained about what they say is Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s disregard for the rule of law, diminishment of individual freedoms, consolidation of power and strategic decisions out of line with US interests.
Separate efforts within the US Senate and House of Representatives are underway to block the transfer of the aircraft to Turkey unless the country declines to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft system and changes its other policies.
Erdoğan seemed to up the ante when he reportedly announced in an interview on Turkish 24 TV that he had reached out to Russian President Vladimir Putin with a proposal for Turkey to jointly produce the S-500 anti-aircraft missile system with Russia. The S-500 announcement was made on the same day, 14 June 2018, that Lockheed announced the rollout ceremony of the F-35.
Turkey, a NATO ally and partner in fighting ISIS, has ordered a total of 100 conventional take-off and landing F-35As. The first batch of 14 are already purchased. A total of 30 F-35As are scheduled for delivery to the Turkish Air Force by the end of 2022.
For its part, Lockheed has tried to avoid the controversy and billed the upcoming ceremony as routine.
“The F-35 program traditionally hosts a ceremony to recognise every US and international customers’ first aircraft,” said Lockheed. “The roll out ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35 aircraft is scheduled for June 21. The aircraft will then ferry to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, where Turkish pilots will join the F-35A training pool.”
It is not clear when Turkey might be able to move its F-35s from Luke AFB, Arizona to within its borders. Questions about that timeline emailed to the F-35 Joint Programme Office were not answered.
The Royal Air Force received its initial four F-35Bs at RAF Marham in Norfolk, Britain on 6 June some six years after that country formally was delivered its first aircraft. For its part, the Israeli Air Force landed its initial two F-35Is on home soil in December 2016 about five months after the formal rollout ceremony.
The F-35A will remain in the USA until Turkish pilots are trained to operate the aircraft, upon which time it will be flown to Turkey.
However, US representatives and senators have objected to Turkey receiving the state-of-the-art stealth fighter after the country signed a contract with Russia to buy the Almaz-Antey S-400 Triumf system, one of the most advanced surface-to-air missile systems on the export market. It's advertised by Rosoboronexport with an "anti-stealth range" up to 81nm (150km).
Lawmakers and State Department officials have also complained about what they say is Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s disregard for the rule of law, diminishment of individual freedoms, consolidation of power and strategic decisions out of line with US interests.
Separate efforts within the US Senate and House of Representatives are underway to block the transfer of the aircraft to Turkey unless the country declines to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft system and changes its other policies.
Erdoğan seemed to up the ante when he reportedly announced in an interview on Turkish 24 TV that he had reached out to Russian President Vladimir Putin with a proposal for Turkey to jointly produce the S-500 anti-aircraft missile system with Russia. The S-500 announcement was made on the same day, 14 June 2018, that Lockheed announced the rollout ceremony of the F-35.
Turkey, a NATO ally and partner in fighting ISIS, has ordered a total of 100 conventional take-off and landing F-35As. The first batch of 14 are already purchased. A total of 30 F-35As are scheduled for delivery to the Turkish Air Force by the end of 2022.
For its part, Lockheed has tried to avoid the controversy and billed the upcoming ceremony as routine.
“The F-35 program traditionally hosts a ceremony to recognise every US and international customers’ first aircraft,” said Lockheed. “The roll out ceremony for Turkey’s first F-35 aircraft is scheduled for June 21. The aircraft will then ferry to Luke Air Force Base, Arizona, where Turkish pilots will join the F-35A training pool.”
It is not clear when Turkey might be able to move its F-35s from Luke AFB, Arizona to within its borders. Questions about that timeline emailed to the F-35 Joint Programme Office were not answered.
The Royal Air Force received its initial four F-35Bs at RAF Marham in Norfolk, Britain on 6 June some six years after that country formally was delivered its first aircraft. For its part, the Israeli Air Force landed its initial two F-35Is on home soil in December 2016 about five months after the formal rollout ceremony.
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: South Skerry
Posts: 305
GR - The improvements come too late for many...
Fully 74% of Export F-35s Delivered Until 2023 Are Obsolete
Now, I'd haggle over the word "obsolete". But more than a few Ms Of D are going to draw this card...
Fully 74% of Export F-35s Delivered Until 2023 Are Obsolete
Now, I'd haggle over the word "obsolete". But more than a few Ms Of D are going to draw this card...
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lon UK
Posts: 276
Turbine D.
@ Turbine D
My comment was about George’s accusation of those who think more positively of the F-35 than others, of being insulting, when he himself starts with an insult...not about my ability to spot successful/unsuccessful program.
Your less than interesting following post then irrelevant to the point being made, though in conclusion, conceding the possibility of the Adir achieving some form of success.
George’s negativity is remarkably similar to that of Pierre Sprey's.
Originally Posted by George K Lee
I'm not sure why F-35 fans need to preface all their thrice recycled PR pablum positive program news with insults. A Trumpish inferiority complex, no doubt.
Brat I think you are having trouble identifying successful aircraft programs from not so successful aircraft programs. Successful programs deliver excellent products as advertised and on time. Not so successful programs deliver marginal products late.
Your less than interesting following post then irrelevant to the point being made, though in conclusion, conceding the possibility of the Adir achieving some form of success.
George’s negativity is remarkably similar to that of Pierre Sprey's.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,055
Lyneham_Lad,
Turkey to receive F-35s? Not according to today’s Times. What’s the truth if this?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...rise-qpws8khzm
US blocks sale of F-35 fighter jets as tensions with Turkey rise
Turkey has been blocked from receiving the F-35 stealth fighter jet from the US amid increasingly fractious relations between the two Nato allies.........
A draft of the annual National Defence Authorisation Act (NDAA), which includes an amendment temporarily blocking Turkey from buying any weapons, was endorsed by the US Senate this week. Under the act, Turkey is barred from receiving any major defence equipment from the US until James Mattis, the defence secretary, has presented a report on the state of relations between the countries....
Turkey had planned to buy 100 of the planes, which have been developed under a joint Nato programme in which it is a participant. The first two had been due to be delivered tomorrow for testing and training but are likely to be delayed.
If the NDAA bill is signed off by President Trump, it would be the first time that the US has slapped an effective arms embargo on Turkey since Ankara sent troops to Cyprus in 1974.
Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......
Turkey to receive F-35s? Not according to today’s Times. What’s the truth if this?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...rise-qpws8khzm
US blocks sale of F-35 fighter jets as tensions with Turkey rise
Turkey has been blocked from receiving the F-35 stealth fighter jet from the US amid increasingly fractious relations between the two Nato allies.........
A draft of the annual National Defence Authorisation Act (NDAA), which includes an amendment temporarily blocking Turkey from buying any weapons, was endorsed by the US Senate this week. Under the act, Turkey is barred from receiving any major defence equipment from the US until James Mattis, the defence secretary, has presented a report on the state of relations between the countries....
Turkey had planned to buy 100 of the planes, which have been developed under a joint Nato programme in which it is a participant. The first two had been due to be delivered tomorrow for testing and training but are likely to be delayed.
If the NDAA bill is signed off by President Trump, it would be the first time that the US has slapped an effective arms embargo on Turkey since Ankara sent troops to Cyprus in 1974.
Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 729
So probably a stupid question but re the picture above of an F35 leaping into the air loaded with external stores....is it stealthy and what range in that config without AAR?
I am guessing no, not stealthy and a range of just beyond that of a Harrier GR3?
I am guessing no, not stealthy and a range of just beyond that of a Harrier GR3?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Under a recently defunct flight path.
Age: 72
Posts: 1,016
Originally Posted by ORAC
Lyneham_Lad,
Turkey to receive F-35s? Not according to today’s Times. What’s the truth if this?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...rise-qpws8khzm
US blocks sale of F-35 fighter jets as tensions with Turkey rise
Turkey has been blocked from receiving the F-35 stealth fighter jet from the US amid increasingly fractious relations between the two Nato allies.........
A draft of the annual National Defence Authorisation Act (NDAA), which includes an amendment temporarily blocking Turkey from buying any weapons, was endorsed by the US Senate this week. Under the act, Turkey is barred from receiving any major defence equipment from the US until James Mattis, the defence secretary, has presented a report on the state of relations between the countries....
Turkey had planned to buy 100 of the planes, which have been developed under a joint Nato programme in which it is a participant. The first two had been due to be delivered tomorrow for testing and training but are likely to be delayed.
If the NDAA bill is signed off by President Trump, it would be the first time that the US has slapped an effective arms embargo on Turkey since Ankara sent troops to Cyprus in 1974.
Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......
Turkey to receive F-35s? Not according to today’s Times. What’s the truth if this?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...rise-qpws8khzm
US blocks sale of F-35 fighter jets as tensions with Turkey rise
Turkey has been blocked from receiving the F-35 stealth fighter jet from the US amid increasingly fractious relations between the two Nato allies.........
A draft of the annual National Defence Authorisation Act (NDAA), which includes an amendment temporarily blocking Turkey from buying any weapons, was endorsed by the US Senate this week. Under the act, Turkey is barred from receiving any major defence equipment from the US until James Mattis, the defence secretary, has presented a report on the state of relations between the countries....
Turkey had planned to buy 100 of the planes, which have been developed under a joint Nato programme in which it is a participant. The first two had been due to be delivered tomorrow for testing and training but are likely to be delayed.
If the NDAA bill is signed off by President Trump, it would be the first time that the US has slapped an effective arms embargo on Turkey since Ankara sent troops to Cyprus in 1974.
Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......
Separate efforts within the US Senate and House of Representatives are underway to block the transfer of the aircraft to Turkey unless the country declines to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft system and changes its other policies.
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: South Skerry
Posts: 305
George’s negativity is remarkably similar to that of Pierre Sprey's.
Thanks for the compliment.
BP - Your observation is correct. The corner reflectors in that configuration are innumerable. As for range: hard to tell, but the F-35B has about the same clean fuel fraction as most contemporary FJs (0.3) and you'll look for a long time before you see any of those contemporaries hauling that kind of external load without some external fuel to provide a useful range.
Thanks for the compliment.
BP - Your observation is correct. The corner reflectors in that configuration are innumerable. As for range: hard to tell, but the F-35B has about the same clean fuel fraction as most contemporary FJs (0.3) and you'll look for a long time before you see any of those contemporaries hauling that kind of external load without some external fuel to provide a useful range.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,633
Originally Posted by 2805662
“Part time lift fan”....glad rag, using that kind of language, you may as well call it “part time undercarriage”.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,924
Originally Posted by Bigpants
So probably a stupid question but re the picture above of an F35 leaping into the air loaded with external stores....is it stealthy and what range in that config without AAR?
I am guessing no, not stealthy and a range of just beyond that of a Harrier GR3?
I am guessing no, not stealthy and a range of just beyond that of a Harrier GR3?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Just behind the back of beyond....
Posts: 3,924
Originally Posted by George K Lee
JN - Threshold Block 3 weapons for the B remain AIM-120C AMRAAM (internal), AIM-9X/ASRAAM (external), 2k JDAM (internal) and 500lb Paveway (either). According to Defense News, the UK jets will use the remaining ASRAAM current versions until they are replaced by the CAMM-based CSP in 2022. As long as the current inventory of AMRAAMs includes C-models, they will fit. I have no idea whether the UK is buying gun pods.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lon UK
Posts: 276
George you are welcome.
The delivery of F-35’s has indeed been an elephant in the room for some time. While Turkey, by it’s geographical position has been an important element in NATO strategy, its performance as a NATO/Western ally however has been rather less than satisfactory, and more recently under Erdogan somewhat contentious. The animosity between Turkey and Greece, another NATO partner, has always been present.
The coup engineered or not certainly gave Erdogan a well seized opportunity to purge his armed forces of any Western leaning leadership, which it fortuitously seems for him, was a Gulanist trait.
Turkey?s Post-Coup Purge and Erdogan?s Private Army ? Foreign Policy
His treatment of his internal opponents has been carried out in the finest traditions of Turkish human and civil rights. A tradition well established through out the history of the Ottaman Empire and more recently, in the countrywide treatment of the Armenian minority which the Turks still refuse to admit was genocide.
The recent move to the S-400 seems to have confirmed that fitting in with NATO is not a Turkish priority, and the move to a more hardline Islamic alignment hardly bodes well with their aggressive pursuit of EU membership.
The continuing security of a cutting edge major western weapon system that is to be in the forefront of a number of countries, if it were to be operated by Turkey is of serious concern to many, hence the ongoing question of will it won’t it be released to them, and certainly of keen interest.
The delivery of F-35’s has indeed been an elephant in the room for some time. While Turkey, by it’s geographical position has been an important element in NATO strategy, its performance as a NATO/Western ally however has been rather less than satisfactory, and more recently under Erdogan somewhat contentious. The animosity between Turkey and Greece, another NATO partner, has always been present.
The coup engineered or not certainly gave Erdogan a well seized opportunity to purge his armed forces of any Western leaning leadership, which it fortuitously seems for him, was a Gulanist trait.
Turkey?s Post-Coup Purge and Erdogan?s Private Army ? Foreign Policy
His treatment of his internal opponents has been carried out in the finest traditions of Turkish human and civil rights. A tradition well established through out the history of the Ottaman Empire and more recently, in the countrywide treatment of the Armenian minority which the Turks still refuse to admit was genocide.
The recent move to the S-400 seems to have confirmed that fitting in with NATO is not a Turkish priority, and the move to a more hardline Islamic alignment hardly bodes well with their aggressive pursuit of EU membership.
The continuing security of a cutting edge major western weapon system that is to be in the forefront of a number of countries, if it were to be operated by Turkey is of serious concern to many, hence the ongoing question of will it won’t it be released to them, and certainly of keen interest.
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,361
Originally Posted by ORAC
Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......
You weren't buying them in the first place, Binali of Bluster: someone wasn't just co signing your loan, there were other financial shenanigans going on.
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Lon UK
Posts: 276
As for Turbine D’s comments of a ‘successful’ program and then wittering on about historic aircraft I wonder why mention was not made upon the ‘success’ of contemporary competing programs.
Russia’s F-35 competitor that was to have been co-developed with India. Hardly a resounding success there. The Indian’s have pulled out, how many are flying?
Japan, a military industrial and scientific leader, has backed off their own 5th Gen Fighter development, the Mitsubishi X-2, and have chosen to go with the F-35.
Germany and France, well they continue talking about theirs.
Turkey is developing one how is that going, if well, why want the F-35?
China does have a 5th Gen program, and is producing the JC-20 and FC-31, but only with derivative powerplants that are not producing the desired thrust.
The design engineering, development, technology advances and integration of systems in the F-35 is beyond the financial ability of any single G7 nation but has been made available to a number of allied Air Forces through a massive ‘successful' collaborative effort of various partners and many would judge it a successful program in any number of ways.
Russia’s F-35 competitor that was to have been co-developed with India. Hardly a resounding success there. The Indian’s have pulled out, how many are flying?
Japan, a military industrial and scientific leader, has backed off their own 5th Gen Fighter development, the Mitsubishi X-2, and have chosen to go with the F-35.
Germany and France, well they continue talking about theirs.
Turkey is developing one how is that going, if well, why want the F-35?
China does have a 5th Gen program, and is producing the JC-20 and FC-31, but only with derivative powerplants that are not producing the desired thrust.
The design engineering, development, technology advances and integration of systems in the F-35 is beyond the financial ability of any single G7 nation but has been made available to a number of allied Air Forces through a massive ‘successful' collaborative effort of various partners and many would judge it a successful program in any number of ways.
