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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

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F-35 Cancelled, then what ?

Old 20th Jun 2018, 00:11
  #11441 (permalink)  
 
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GR - The improvements come too late for many...

Fully 74% of Export F-35s Delivered Until 2023 Are Obsolete

Now, I'd haggle over the word "obsolete". But more than a few Ms Of D are going to draw this card...

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Old 20th Jun 2018, 01:10
  #11442 (permalink)  
 
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Turbine D.
Originally Posted by George K Lee View Post
I'm not sure why F-35 fans need to preface all their thrice recycled PR pablum positive program news with insults. A Trumpish inferiority complex, no doubt.
@ Turbine D
Brat I think you are having trouble identifying successful aircraft programs from not so successful aircraft programs. Successful programs deliver excellent products as advertised and on time. Not so successful programs deliver marginal products late.
My comment was about George’s accusation of those who think more positively of the F-35 than others, of being insulting, when he himself starts with an insult...not about my ability to spot successful/unsuccessful program.

Your less than interesting following post then irrelevant to the point being made, though in conclusion, conceding the possibility of the Adir achieving some form of success.

George’s negativity is remarkably similar to that of Pierre Sprey's.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 05:02
  #11443 (permalink)  
 
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“Part time lift fan”....glad rag, using that kind of language, you may as well call it “part time undercarriage”.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 06:37
  #11444 (permalink)  
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 07:16
  #11445 (permalink)  
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Lyneham_Lad,

Turkey to receive F-35s? Not according to today’s Times. What’s the truth if this?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...rise-qpws8khzm

US blocks sale of F-35 fighter jets as tensions with Turkey rise

Turkey has been blocked from receiving the F-35 stealth fighter jet from the US amid increasingly fractious relations between the two Nato allies.........

A draft of the annual National Defence Authorisation Act (NDAA), which includes an amendment temporarily blocking Turkey from buying any weapons, was endorsed by the US Senate this week. Under the act, Turkey is barred from receiving any major defence equipment from the US until James Mattis, the defence secretary, has presented a report on the state of relations between the countries....

Turkey had planned to buy 100 of the planes, which have been developed under a joint Nato programme in which it is a participant. The first two had been due to be delivered tomorrow for testing and training but are likely to be delayed.

If the NDAA bill is signed off by President Trump, it would be the first time that the US has slapped an effective arms embargo on Turkey since Ankara sent troops to Cyprus in 1974.

Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......

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Old 20th Jun 2018, 09:00
  #11446 (permalink)  
 
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So probably a stupid question but re the picture above of an F35 leaping into the air loaded with external stores....is it stealthy and what range in that config without AAR?

I am guessing no, not stealthy and a range of just beyond that of a Harrier GR3?
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 10:41
  #11447 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Lyneham_Lad,

Turkey to receive F-35s? Not according to today’s Times. What’s the truth if this?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/u...rise-qpws8khzm

US blocks sale of F-35 fighter jets as tensions with Turkey rise

Turkey has been blocked from receiving the F-35 stealth fighter jet from the US amid increasingly fractious relations between the two Nato allies.........

A draft of the annual National Defence Authorisation Act (NDAA), which includes an amendment temporarily blocking Turkey from buying any weapons, was endorsed by the US Senate this week. Under the act, Turkey is barred from receiving any major defence equipment from the US until James Mattis, the defence secretary, has presented a report on the state of relations between the countries....

Turkey had planned to buy 100 of the planes, which have been developed under a joint Nato programme in which it is a participant. The first two had been due to be delivered tomorrow for testing and training but are likely to be delayed.

If the NDAA bill is signed off by President Trump, it would be the first time that the US has slapped an effective arms embargo on Turkey since Ankara sent troops to Cyprus in 1974.

Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......

I read The Times article earlier this morning - it essentially is just another report on the efforts to block the deliveries. The Flight Global article does include the sentence:-
Separate efforts within the US Senate and House of Representatives are underway to block the transfer of the aircraft to Turkey unless the country declines to purchase the S-400 anti-aircraft system and changes its other policies.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 11:20
  #11448 (permalink)  
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The answer will be if they are delivered or not.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:15
  #11449 (permalink)  
 
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George’s negativity is remarkably similar to that of Pierre Sprey's.

Thanks for the compliment.

BP - Your observation is correct. The corner reflectors in that configuration are innumerable. As for range: hard to tell, but the F-35B has about the same clean fuel fraction as most contemporary FJs (0.3) and you'll look for a long time before you see any of those contemporaries hauling that kind of external load without some external fuel to provide a useful range.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:17
  #11450 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 2805662 View Post
“Part time lift fan”....glad rag, using that kind of language, you may as well call it “part time undercarriage”.
fair point. However does that imply that the B cannot land in the conventional sense?
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:27
  #11451 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bigpants View Post
So probably a stupid question but re the picture above of an F35 leaping into the air loaded with external stores....is it stealthy and what range in that config without AAR?

I am guessing no, not stealthy and a range of just beyond that of a Harrier GR3?
​​​​​​​I think that your 'guesses' are definitely correct - that configuration is not stealthy, and the range of the F-35B without AAR in any configuration is relatively modest…..
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:36
  #11452 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by George K Lee View Post
JN - Threshold Block 3 weapons for the B remain AIM-120C AMRAAM (internal), AIM-9X/ASRAAM (external), 2k JDAM (internal) and 500lb Paveway (either). According to Defense News, the UK jets will use the remaining ASRAAM current versions until they are replaced by the CAMM-based CSP in 2022. As long as the current inventory of AMRAAMs includes C-models, they will fit. I have no idea whether the UK is buying gun pods.
2,000-lb JDAM? Does the UK have any? And do 2,000-lb class weapons fit in the F-35B's internal bays?
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:42
  #11453 (permalink)  
 
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George you are welcome.

The delivery of F-35’s has indeed been an elephant in the room for some time. While Turkey, by it’s geographical position has been an important element in NATO strategy, its performance as a NATO/Western ally however has been rather less than satisfactory, and more recently under Erdogan somewhat contentious. The animosity between Turkey and Greece, another NATO partner, has always been present.

The coup engineered or not certainly gave Erdogan a well seized opportunity to purge his armed forces of any Western leaning leadership, which it fortuitously seems for him, was a Gulanist trait.
Turkey?s Post-Coup Purge and Erdogan?s Private Army ? Foreign Policy

His treatment of his internal opponents has been carried out in the finest traditions of Turkish human and civil rights. A tradition well established through out the history of the Ottaman Empire and more recently, in the countrywide treatment of the Armenian minority which the Turks still refuse to admit was genocide.

The recent move to the S-400 seems to have confirmed that fitting in with NATO is not a Turkish priority, and the move to a more hardline Islamic alignment hardly bodes well with their aggressive pursuit of EU membership.

The continuing security of a cutting edge major western weapon system that is to be in the forefront of a number of countries, if it were to be operated by Turkey is of serious concern to many, hence the ongoing question of will it won’t it be released to them, and certainly of keen interest.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:57
  #11454 (permalink)  
 
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JN - You're right. 1000 lb JDAM internal on the F-35B.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 14:00
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
Binali Yildirim, the Turkish prime minister, said that the Senate’s move was unfortunate and “against the soul of strategic partnerships”. He added: “Turkey is not without alternatives.”......
I will now raise the red BS flag on the noise expelled by Binali Yildirim; I recall how Turkey "buys" aircraft from the US and others. They don't have the money to afford it, but somehow someone in Washington (or in a few other places) is able to arrange "loan guarantees" for the Turks to buy the equipment on credit. Oh wait, all of a sudden now the foreign companies selling the aircraft have to arrange for offsets (buying stuff from Turkey) for the aircraft sales to go forward. Seen it a few decades ago when I got exposed to the nitty-gritty of Foreign Military Sales, and a few variations on that theme.

You weren't buying them in the first place, Binali of Bluster: someone wasn't just co signing your loan, there were other financial shenanigans going on.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 15:45
  #11456 (permalink)  
 
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As for Turbine D’s comments of a ‘successful’ program and then wittering on about historic aircraft I wonder why mention was not made upon the ‘success’ of contemporary competing programs.

Russia’s F-35 competitor that was to have been co-developed with India. Hardly a resounding success there. The Indian’s have pulled out, how many are flying?

Japan, a military industrial and scientific leader, has backed off their own 5th Gen Fighter development, the Mitsubishi X-2, and have chosen to go with the F-35.

Germany and France, well they continue talking about theirs.

Turkey is developing one how is that going, if well, why want the F-35?

China does have a 5th Gen program, and is producing the JC-20 and FC-31, but only with derivative powerplants that are not producing the desired thrust.

The design engineering, development, technology advances and integration of systems in the F-35 is beyond the financial ability of any single G7 nation but has been made available to a number of allied Air Forces through a massive ‘successful' collaborative effort of various partners and many would judge it a successful program in any number of ways.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 16:10
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Originally Posted by Brat View Post
The design engineering, development, technology advances and integration of systems in the F-35 is beyond the financial ability of any single G7 nation but has been made available to a number of allied Air Forces through a massive ‘successful', seemingly endless and ongoing hoovering up of obscenely vast quantities of defence budgets and time...
There you go, fixed that for you...

-RP
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 16:42
  #11458 (permalink)  
 
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No doubt in whose camp you are then, but then, if you had made any reasoned response to the points raised about the cost, and success of competing programs, rather then the rather fatuous editing, it might not have seemed such a simpleton’s response.

Probably better sticking to the beer, probably very knowledgeable about that.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 20:29
  #11459 (permalink)  
 
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Brat,
The design engineering, development, technology advances and integration of systems in the F-35 is beyond the financial ability of any single G7 nation but has been made available to a number of allied Air Forces through a massive ‘successful' collaborative effort of various partners and many would judge it a successful program in any number of ways.
You need to come around from the dark side of the moon. The US had all the financial wherewithal to do the total F-35 just as we had to do the total F-22, just as we had to do the total B-2 bomber and just as we will have to do whatever else comes down the pike that is technologically sensitive. The next US Defense spending budget will be over three quarters of a trillion $$$s.

The reason why we search out partners for some programs is mainly to reduce the purchasing price in the long run for the USAF, USN and USMC for that particular program. It's called "Lets Make A Deal!" I know because I helped with some of the F-16 efforts long ago in this respect. The reason we don't search out partners for some programs is because of proprietary technology protections reasons. For the F-35 program putting it into simple words that you wrote, the establishment of the massive collaborative effort of various partners was to suck you in to buying the aircraft and reduce the price to our military users, don't know if you are English or not but thanks for your contributions if you are. If you don't believe this, watch what happens if Canada backs out and buys FA-18s from Boeing instead, probably a good deal for both of them. But I don't think they will be making partner parts for the F-35 if that's their final decision.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 21:51
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Originally Posted by Turbine D View Post
Brat,

You need to come around from the dark side of the moon. The US had all the financial wherewithal to do the total F-35 just as we had to do the total F-22, just as we had to do the total B-2 bomber and just as we will have to do whatever else comes down the pike that is technologically sensitive. ...
And just where have I intimated otherwise???

You do keep on bringing up these tangents that have little relevance to the ongoing discussion.

However since you mention partners, I think there are one or two aspects that the UK has brought to the F-35 table in order to be a tier1 partner.
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british-f-35/
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