F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Brat,
Do tell the entire story.
Step one - A squadron of Marine F-35Bs have been relocated to Japan.
Step two - Will operationally deploy at sea onboard an amphibious assault ship in 2018.
I know you would like to believe that they are good to go today at a moment's notice, but...
Turbine D, like George... you really must get the facts straight. USMC F-35’s have already deployed to Japan.
Step one - A squadron of Marine F-35Bs have been relocated to Japan.
Step two - Will operationally deploy at sea onboard an amphibious assault ship in 2018.
I know you would like to believe that they are good to go today at a moment's notice, but...
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Good point, TD....
There's a distinction between "deployed to Joint Base Bunga Bunga to support combat operations in Grungistan" and "deployed to a 5000-person airbase that's been active for 62 years".
There's a distinction between "deployed to Joint Base Bunga Bunga to support combat operations in Grungistan" and "deployed to a 5000-person airbase that's been active for 62 years".
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I do enjoy reading the proponents offerings although they do tend to spin faster than a miele at max chat..... Ergo replace A10 in CAS from altitude with pgm doesn't need ll role, no it can't hit moving target, OK its got a great gun to chew them up....
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A great Laurel and Hardy act, the deadly duo now focussing attention to the difference between the words ‘deploy' and ‘relocate’ with hearty back claps for each others diminishing attempts to highlight the problems, shortcomings and general unsuitability of the F-35.
With both the USMC and USAF having declared the F-35 combat ready they aren’t going to Japan as gate guardians. Guys, surely you can do better.
The F-35 like all development programs has problems and is under intense scrutiny...and so it should be, as should, and does every military program. People lives and possibly survival depend on that. As problems are highlighted they are addressed, the attention of a great number of responsible people and organisations of over 10 countries are intently scrutinising every development. The program continues despite your misgivings.
With both the USMC and USAF having declared the F-35 combat ready they aren’t going to Japan as gate guardians. Guys, surely you can do better.
The F-35 like all development programs has problems and is under intense scrutiny...and so it should be, as should, and does every military program. People lives and possibly survival depend on that. As problems are highlighted they are addressed, the attention of a great number of responsible people and organisations of over 10 countries are intently scrutinising every development. The program continues despite your misgivings.
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F-35B First Aerial Gun Fire
BiggaPitcha: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3878/...c8a051_o_d.jpg (2.9Mb)
"Maj John Dirk fires the F-35 gun pod for the first time airborne on the F-35B on Feb. 21, 2017, near NAS Patuxent River, Maryland."
cor blimey hold the 
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Brat,
You misunderstand, the only countering of your posts are to set the record straight which you fail to do at times. And one of the things is that the F-35B isn't quite ready for prime time, yet, whether in Japan, California or Maryland, although you seem to think so... For example:
Surely the F-35 program isn't going to be cancelled at this late date in time, it is what it is. However, there are definitely some problems, the F-35s are late to the main stage. When you are late, you lose competitive advantage and value, proven fact. They cost too much, some key electronics have yet to be resolved and most importantly none represent the complete capability of what was advertised to the American people by the F-35 program management or Lockheed-Martin at the program onset. But, this minor deficiency was corrected by moving the goal posts in the correct direction and by clever advertising and a massive PR campaign, like no other program before it.
Yes, it does take time to wring out all the little nuances that appear at the beginning of any new program. However, this was a different kind of program, a concurrency program where the elements of concurrency are known. But, everything about concurrency wasn't known in the F-35 program. Painfully, when this happens, it is development on the run and that is what is taking place now.
A great Laurel and Hardy act, the deadly duo now focussing attention to the difference between the words ‘deploy' and ‘relocate’ with hearty back claps for each others diminishing attempts to highlight the problems, shortcomings and general unsuitability of the F-35.
Maj John Dirk fires the F-35 gun pod for the first time airborne on the F-35B on Feb. 21, 2017, near NAS Patuxent River, Maryland.
Yes, it does take time to wring out all the little nuances that appear at the beginning of any new program. However, this was a different kind of program, a concurrency program where the elements of concurrency are known. But, everything about concurrency wasn't known in the F-35 program. Painfully, when this happens, it is development on the run and that is what is taking place now.
F-35B First Aerial Gun Fire
BiggaPitcha: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3878/...c8a051_o_d.jpg (2.9Mb)
"Maj John Dirk fires the F-35 gun pod for the first time airborne on the F-35B
on Feb. 21, 2017, near NAS Patuxent River, Maryland."
BiggaPitcha: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3878/...c8a051_o_d.jpg (2.9Mb)
"Maj John Dirk fires the F-35 gun pod for the first time airborne on the F-35B
on Feb. 21, 2017, near NAS Patuxent River, Maryland."
And earlier still,
"F-35 test pilot fires the first aerial gun test burst of the GAU-22/A 25mm gatling gun
from F-35A aircraft, at Edwards Air Force Base in California, Oct 30th 2015."
George, that previously successful mode was studied and rejected out of hand by the imperative of the JSF concept of "one size fits all will surely save us money." Never forget the political climate of the late Bush 41 and early Clinton Administrations: peace dividend, save money, reduce military size by about 40% or more from Cold War levels. That underwrote everything (and IMO, it's amazing that Osprey survived that.)
Between Roles and Missions battles, and the Goldwarter Nichols sledgehammer from Congress, that family of studies were either unfunded, or defunded in a hurry. ( This info is second hand from a few Pentagon vets involved in the requirements development of JSF ... my god, it's been over two decades since that conversation. I are gettin' old.)
About the term Deployed: some of you need to stop with your semantic horseapples and get a freaking grip. The Squadrons in Iwakuni are Forward Deployed just as I was Forward Deployed to NAF Atsugi in support of support Seventh Fleet ships home ported in Yokosuka (albeit a quarter of a century ago). Hey, look an E-2D squadron has forward deployed to Iwakuni. Deployed means deployed, and if you don't like it, go to the back of the bus. (OK, cantankerous old salt mode is now secured).
F-35B's in Iwakuni are Forward Deployed aircraft squadrons .... iIf they are only an 80% all up round, as it were, so be it. ( We didn't have Penguin on our Seahawks, but somehow we managed to get our mission done .. but wait, some of you cry, you can't have been deployed, you didn't have Block I upgrade!) The Marine Aviators will do what ever they are called on to do, and if it ends up like Task Force Smith, some heads will roll only after some of our people die. See also submarines being sent on patrol with torpedoes that didn't f@!@ing work, WW II. An old habit in the Department of the Navy. 
Real life isn't a video game.
PS: at last, the f@!@ing gun works. All saints be praised.
Systems integration is like a turtle: slow and plodding but it's eventually get there.
Between Roles and Missions battles, and the Goldwarter Nichols sledgehammer from Congress, that family of studies were either unfunded, or defunded in a hurry. ( This info is second hand from a few Pentagon vets involved in the requirements development of JSF ... my god, it's been over two decades since that conversation. I are gettin' old.)
About the term Deployed: some of you need to stop with your semantic horseapples and get a freaking grip. The Squadrons in Iwakuni are Forward Deployed just as I was Forward Deployed to NAF Atsugi in support of support Seventh Fleet ships home ported in Yokosuka (albeit a quarter of a century ago). Hey, look an E-2D squadron has forward deployed to Iwakuni. Deployed means deployed, and if you don't like it, go to the back of the bus. (OK, cantankerous old salt mode is now secured).
F-35B's in Iwakuni are Forward Deployed aircraft squadrons .... iIf they are only an 80% all up round, as it were, so be it. ( We didn't have Penguin on our Seahawks, but somehow we managed to get our mission done .. but wait, some of you cry, you can't have been deployed, you didn't have Block I upgrade!)
The Marine Aviators will do what ever they are called on to do, and if it ends up like Task Force Smith, some heads will roll only after some of our people die. See also submarines being sent on patrol with torpedoes that didn't f@!@ing work, WW II. An old habit in the Department of the Navy. Real life isn't a video game.PS: at last, the f@!@ing gun works. All saints be praised.
Systems integration is like a turtle: slow and plodding but it's eventually get there.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 6th Mar 2017 at 18:12.
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There's a distinction between "deployed to Joint Base Bunga Bunga to support combat operations in Grungistan" and "deployed to a 5000-person airbase that's been active for 62 years".
So these cases are the same? You can call it semantics, but there's a difference between going to Iwakuni (or Lakenheath. for that matter) on a long-planned operation, and being able to answer the phone for a Cocom needing support. There always is one, and it's normal. It's the difference between IOC and FOC.
So these cases are the same? You can call it semantics, but there's a difference between going to Iwakuni (or Lakenheath. for that matter) on a long-planned operation, and being able to answer the phone for a Cocom needing support. There always is one, and it's normal. It's the difference between IOC and FOC.
George, I have said about all I am going to say regarding the semantic horseapples. When the phone call comes, they will go, with the tools they have. That's how it works. I suspect that if you served that you understand the point I am trying to make. The further point I will make is that the F-35 will not be in a fight all by itself, nor is it supposed to win the fight all by itself. (I realize that anyone who served in an Air Force will have a hard time understanding that, since apparently air power all by itself can win a war if one is air minded enough. )
The USMC lives and dies by the combined arms fight. It's what they do.
)The USMC lives and dies by the combined arms fight. It's what they do.
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When you are late, you lose competitive advantage and value, proven fact
The F-35 is a 5th Gen successor to the F-22, building upon what has been learned.
The competitive advantage you refer to appears...for the time being to have been retained. It is not being counted upon, but being built upon. What is not being contemplated is reliance on falling back on 4th Gen assets and simply upgrading them, particularly when potential adversaries continue to develop their 5th Gen efforts.
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Unusually long article about F-35B SRVL development in BAE Warton SIM with 'Wizzer' Wilson. Worth reading for the details - especially about hazards of SRVL - video same source: 03 Mar 2017 Liat Clark
Flying the F-35B: inside BAE's secret war machine simulator tucked away in a quiet UK village
F35B jet simulator: behind the scenes of BAE's top-secret project | WIRED UK
Flying the F-35B: inside BAE's secret war machine simulator tucked away in a quiet UK village
F35B jet simulator: behind the scenes of BAE's top-secret project | WIRED UK
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 6th Mar 2017 at 23:16. Reason: WARTON & author / date
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Thanks, informational.
He makes an interesting point about Brit innovations ending up being adopted by the USN, and the SRVL possible being another.
Another point the USMC made the other day was once air superiority over a particular theatre has been made their F-35’s can then use pylons and become a bomb truck, something often overlooked.
He makes an interesting point about Brit innovations ending up being adopted by the USN, and the SRVL possible being another.
Another point the USMC made the other day was once air superiority over a particular theatre has been made their F-35’s can then use pylons and become a bomb truck, something often overlooked.
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The USMC expressed interest years ago in SRVL development but did not say why. My guess is that SRVL would be useful for a USMC F-35B EMERGENCY SRVL aboard CVNs [not likely otherwise given that USN says 'no F-35Bs on CVNs] but NOT however for LHAs - decks not wide enough amongst other issues. However the BEDFORD ARRAY SRVL landing aid [on CVFs] (not mentioned in video or above post) was deemed useful by USN PaxRiver VX-23 LSOs years ago now - along with the HUD indicators to go with it for CVN use - but nothing heard since. A lot of useful old USN info has disappeared from the web - sadly.
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 7th Mar 2017 at 00:41. Reason: add 'SRVL' to Bedford Array landing aid CVFs then edit edits etc....
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'ORAC' the USMC interest was expressed years ago when the contract to develop the SRVL was made. (I'll dig it out) Any F-35B operators from CVFs now would be interested in SRVLs Shirley.
ByTheBy found this 'USN interest' story from 2014... URL does not work NOW - so short excerpt
US Navy sees benefits in SRVL for F-35C carrier recovery 18 March 2014 Gareth Jennings
http://www.janes.com/article/35640/u...rrier-recovery
_______________________________________
WOW! Did not remember how ANCIENT the USMC interest has been but back in dem daze theys waz only buying F-35Bs without the subsequent USN arm twisting to get some USMC F-35Cs for CVN ops [no Bees CVNs]
US Marines eye UK JSF shipborne technique 15 06 2007 Flight International
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...technique.html
________________________________________
FARNBOROUGH: BAE to ramp up work on JSF production 13 Jul 2010 Craig Hoyle
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...roduction.html
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JSF To Develop Landing Technique For U.K. Carriers 15 Oct 2010 – Graham Warwick
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...0/10/15/03.xml
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RAMP UP Deck-mounted ski-jump assembly marks key step toward U.K. carrier-based JSF operations
Guy Norris, Aviation Week & Space Technology / 19 Aug 2013 pp. 33-35
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F-35B begins 'ski-jump' trials for carrier operations 23 Jun 2015 Gareth Jennings
http://www.janes.com/article/52509/f...ier-operations [not working now]
__________________________________
At last a working URL: http://aviationweek.com/awin/uk-look...35-carrier-ops
ByTheBy found this 'USN interest' story from 2014... URL does not work NOW - so short excerpt
US Navy sees benefits in SRVL for F-35C carrier recovery 18 March 2014 Gareth Jennings
"London - IHS Jane’s Defence Weekly The US Navy (USN) has seen benefits in aspects of the UK’s Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) technique for recovering the Lockheed Martin F-35C Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter on to the deck of its aircraft carriers, it was disclosed on 19 March [2014]....
...“Joint research efforts on both sides of the Atlantic have developed enhanced aircraft flight controls and displays which are applicable to both the F-35C… and the F-35B… SRVL recovery to the aircraft carrier, albeit separated by some 70 kt approach airspeed,” a statement read, adding: “The recent flight simulation trials at Warton tested these enhanced control law modes for F-35C arrested recoveries to a Nimitz-class carrier and gained positive feedback from the US Navy and F-35 test pilots involved in the trial.”
According to James Denham from the Aeromechanics division at the US Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR), simulations show that adopting aspects of the SRVL manouvre for F-35C conventional landings result in more accurate touchdowns, less bolters, and reduced pilot training.... [Perhaps there is a mixing of 'Delta Flight Path' for the F-35C & Bedford Array - LSO School newsletters described what they thought of the Bedford Array - no longer available online sadly]
...The USN has been taken by the improved safety and ease of use of the Bedford Array in particular, as the optical landing system (‘meatball’) currently used on its Nimitz-class carriers..."
...“Joint research efforts on both sides of the Atlantic have developed enhanced aircraft flight controls and displays which are applicable to both the F-35C… and the F-35B… SRVL recovery to the aircraft carrier, albeit separated by some 70 kt approach airspeed,” a statement read, adding: “The recent flight simulation trials at Warton tested these enhanced control law modes for F-35C arrested recoveries to a Nimitz-class carrier and gained positive feedback from the US Navy and F-35 test pilots involved in the trial.”
According to James Denham from the Aeromechanics division at the US Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR), simulations show that adopting aspects of the SRVL manouvre for F-35C conventional landings result in more accurate touchdowns, less bolters, and reduced pilot training.... [Perhaps there is a mixing of 'Delta Flight Path' for the F-35C & Bedford Array - LSO School newsletters described what they thought of the Bedford Array - no longer available online sadly]
...The USN has been taken by the improved safety and ease of use of the Bedford Array in particular, as the optical landing system (‘meatball’) currently used on its Nimitz-class carriers..."
_______________________________________
WOW! Did not remember how ANCIENT the USMC interest has been but back in dem daze theys waz only buying F-35Bs without the subsequent USN arm twisting to get some USMC F-35Cs for CVN ops [no Bees CVNs]
US Marines eye UK JSF shipborne technique 15 06 2007 Flight International
“A shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL) technique being developed by the UK for the Lockheed Martin F-35B is being eyed by the US Marine Corps as a way to facilitate operation of short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) Joint Strike Fighters from US Navy aircraft carriers.
The F-35B is scheduled to replace USMC Boeing F/A-18s and concerns have arisen that integration of the STOVL JSF with conventional US Navy fighters will disrupt carrier landing operations....
...For the USMC, the technique would allow a conventional approach to a short land-ing on the carrier and could ease integration of the F-35B with US Navy F/A-18E/Fs.
“We strongly support what the UK is doing on rolling landings,” says Lt Gen John Castellaw, USMC deputy commandant for aviation. Studies on how the F-35B will be operated continue, but SRVL “appears to be a viable option”, he says. The F-35B will also replace the USMC’s Boeing AV-8Bs, but these normally operate along-side helicopters from assault carriers too small for conventional fighters.
“We continue to work with the navy on this,” Castellaw says, pointing out the STOVL Harrier has been operated successfully alongside US Navy fighters as part of an air wing the carrier USS Roosevelt.”"
The F-35B is scheduled to replace USMC Boeing F/A-18s and concerns have arisen that integration of the STOVL JSF with conventional US Navy fighters will disrupt carrier landing operations....
...For the USMC, the technique would allow a conventional approach to a short land-ing on the carrier and could ease integration of the F-35B with US Navy F/A-18E/Fs.
“We strongly support what the UK is doing on rolling landings,” says Lt Gen John Castellaw, USMC deputy commandant for aviation. Studies on how the F-35B will be operated continue, but SRVL “appears to be a viable option”, he says. The F-35B will also replace the USMC’s Boeing AV-8Bs, but these normally operate along-side helicopters from assault carriers too small for conventional fighters.
“We continue to work with the navy on this,” Castellaw says, pointing out the STOVL Harrier has been operated successfully alongside US Navy fighters as part of an air wing the carrier USS Roosevelt.”"
________________________________________
FARNBOROUGH: BAE to ramp up work on JSF production 13 Jul 2010 Craig Hoyle
“...Considerable work has already been conducted to prepare for the UK’s future operation of the F-35B. Qinetiq’s VAAC Harrier test aircraft supported the development of its flight control laws, & also tested a shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL) technique. This will enable the STOVL type to return to the carrier’s deck at a greater landing weight, allowing unused stores to be kept on the wing, rather than jettisoned before landing.
Developed for the UK as an alternative to making a vertical landing, the concept also has the backing of the USMC, which plans to adopt the procedure when operating its F-35Bs from the US Navy’s Nimitz-class aircraft carriers...."
Developed for the UK as an alternative to making a vertical landing, the concept also has the backing of the USMC, which plans to adopt the procedure when operating its F-35Bs from the US Navy’s Nimitz-class aircraft carriers...."
_______________________________________________
JSF To Develop Landing Technique For U.K. Carriers 15 Oct 2010 – Graham Warwick
“While the future of the U.K. Royal Navy’s two new aircraft carriers is uncertain, Lockheed Martin has been awarded a $13 million contract to incorporate shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL) capability into the F-35B for the U.K....
________________________________________
RAMP UP Deck-mounted ski-jump assembly marks key step toward U.K. carrier-based JSF operations
Guy Norris, Aviation Week & Space Technology / 19 Aug 2013 pp. 33-35
“...Design work is also close to completion on the shipborne rolling-vertical-landing (SRVL) system, which is being developed for the U.K. by Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems and Northrop Grumman. The SRVL technique, which will also be used by the U.S. Marine Corps while operating F-35B short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing variants from U.S. Navy carriers [one guesses CVNs meant], enables the aircraft to land at heavier weights than possible when making a vertical landing. Initial flight trials of the F-35B, including SRVLs, are expected in 2018...."
F-35B begins 'ski-jump' trials for carrier operations 23 Jun 2015 Gareth Jennings
"...As part of this work [Wizzer] Wilson himself has developed new helmet-mounted symbology, known as the Ship Reference Velocity Vector (SRVV), to help the pilot better judge his approach to the ship.
BAE Systems has also built a networked 180° panoramic cockpit position and a 180° panoramic landing safety officer (LSO) position to simulate and help train for carrier deck movements. While all of these technologies and techniques are being developed chiefly with the UK in mind, both the US Navy and US Marine Corps have shown strong interest and may well adopt some or all of the concepts for their own use.”
BAE Systems has also built a networked 180° panoramic cockpit position and a 180° panoramic landing safety officer (LSO) position to simulate and help train for carrier deck movements. While all of these technologies and techniques are being developed chiefly with the UK in mind, both the US Navy and US Marine Corps have shown strong interest and may well adopt some or all of the concepts for their own use.”
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At last a working URL: http://aviationweek.com/awin/uk-look...35-carrier-ops
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 7th Mar 2017 at 09:43.