F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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I think the F-35 and her derivatives will ultimately do fine...
Though I suppose, as they are phased in over time and the others are phased out, it will give a large spread on airframe hours before we are totally reliant on them.
Though there are far more experianced and qualified people here who could comment on that scenario than I.
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Green Knight, many thanks, I'll remember this year! 
I'd be intrigued to see how the politicians define a defensive carrier but as the wording allows for a change in the international situation (perhaps such as China having a carrier) that is a simple job for a Government lawyer.
I'd be intrigued to see how the politicians define a defensive carrier but as the wording allows for a change in the international situation (perhaps such as China having a carrier) that is a simple job for a Government lawyer.
Don't also forget that Lockheed produced more than 2,500 F-104 Starfighters mainly for NATO air forces including Canada plus Japan, Taiwan, Pakistan etc. It was a very advanced hot ship in its day again not without teething problems but stayed the course until recently from the 1950's...
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Using the same logic, I fail to see why we should invest in the F35 in the first place.
Our forces do ultimately make it work, no matter what platform we choose.
Why then go for an overly expensive, complex and compromised fighter like the F35 iso something a bit more fiscally conservative like the Gripen NG, F18SH or even a F16NG type project?
The F104 analogy is not really underwriting the F35 logic, first and foremost, the F35's biggest client, the USA, didn't believe in it and deemed it useless and while it was ,in time, loved by its users, its effectiveness was very doubtful certainly compared with its rivals like the MiG-21, the MIRAGE III, Saab Draken.
Also the F35 is by no means build with the same philosophy as the F16, which was not really a project the USAF liked in the first place.
Looking at its size, weight and engine-needs, it is by no means certain that the F35 will be able to deal with the inevitable growth that comes with fighters that have to work for a couple of decades.
The Israelis themselves don't even consider its stealth architecture as being a useful item past 2020, sure they will make it work (it cost them nothing so why pass on it?) but they can make everything work, hell they could even make a useful weapon out of Montgolfier's hot-air Balloon.
The article is by no means supporting the case of the F35, it just shows what happens if you let get things out of control and create something that has the aura of being to big to fail.
At the same time it, rightfully, asserts that most of our forces have the knowledge and ability to make things work out for them, a testimony to their professionalism.
That does not mean we should now roll over and play nicely, it just means we should be vigilant, do as much damage control as possible, and use alternatives where possible.
All this could mean less F35's in the long-run, not an outright cancellation, that option has passed a long time ago now, but maybe the use of a cheaper platform which is capable enough in addition to the F35.
Our forces do ultimately make it work, no matter what platform we choose.
Why then go for an overly expensive, complex and compromised fighter like the F35 iso something a bit more fiscally conservative like the Gripen NG, F18SH or even a F16NG type project?
The F104 analogy is not really underwriting the F35 logic, first and foremost, the F35's biggest client, the USA, didn't believe in it and deemed it useless and while it was ,in time, loved by its users, its effectiveness was very doubtful certainly compared with its rivals like the MiG-21, the MIRAGE III, Saab Draken.
Also the F35 is by no means build with the same philosophy as the F16, which was not really a project the USAF liked in the first place.
Looking at its size, weight and engine-needs, it is by no means certain that the F35 will be able to deal with the inevitable growth that comes with fighters that have to work for a couple of decades.
The Israelis themselves don't even consider its stealth architecture as being a useful item past 2020, sure they will make it work (it cost them nothing so why pass on it?) but they can make everything work, hell they could even make a useful weapon out of Montgolfier's hot-air Balloon.
The article is by no means supporting the case of the F35, it just shows what happens if you let get things out of control and create something that has the aura of being to big to fail.
At the same time it, rightfully, asserts that most of our forces have the knowledge and ability to make things work out for them, a testimony to their professionalism.
That does not mean we should now roll over and play nicely, it just means we should be vigilant, do as much damage control as possible, and use alternatives where possible.
All this could mean less F35's in the long-run, not an outright cancellation, that option has passed a long time ago now, but maybe the use of a cheaper platform which is capable enough in addition to the F35.
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what you forget was that, in their day, the F-104 and the F-16 were cheap compared to the alternatives (eg F-15, F-4) - same as the Mirage 3 and the Mig-21 - a lot of better aircraft around which were operated by the high end airforces and the others were sold in very large numbers to the mid range airforces
The trouble is the F-35 is the most expensive aircraft currenlty on sale (no F-22's for sale at all) and whilst it may, one day, be better than some of the opposition there is a lot of competition for the ever decreasing defence dollar in many place
The trouble is the F-35 is the most expensive aircraft currenlty on sale (no F-22's for sale at all) and whilst it may, one day, be better than some of the opposition there is a lot of competition for the ever decreasing defence dollar in many place
In terms of cost originally the F16 wasnt that cheap and only got the big orders with the USAF after the heavily modified A7 project forced them to drop the price to keep the much cheaper A7 out . Cant remember what it was called now !
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bvcu, if you mean what was the modified A-7 called, it was the A-7F. The YA-7F was the development aircraft, it essentially turned the A-7 into a sort of updated F-8 Crusader look-alike, which ironically, is what the A-7 was based on in the first place!
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"The F-16's big orders with the USAF" were placed in the late 1970s and early 1980s (entered service 1978, improved -C entered production 1984), while the YA-7F project didn't even start until 1985!
The YA-7F was to replace the USANG A-7D/Ks and the USAF's A-10s. The first prototype (a converted A-7D) made its first flight 29 November 1989, but the program was canceled in 1991 as part of the military reductions after the break-up of the USSR. The ANG bought F-16C/Ds and the A-10 remained in service.
Factsheets : YA-7F "Corsair II"
Ling Temco Vought TA-7K Corsair II
The YA-7F was to replace the USANG A-7D/Ks and the USAF's A-10s. The first prototype (a converted A-7D) made its first flight 29 November 1989, but the program was canceled in 1991 as part of the military reductions after the break-up of the USSR. The ANG bought F-16C/Ds and the A-10 remained in service.
Factsheets : YA-7F "Corsair II"
Ling Temco Vought TA-7K Corsair II
Originally Posted by TBM-Legend
Don't also forget that Lockheed produced more than 2,500 F-104 Starfighters mainly for NATO air forces including Canada plus Japan, Taiwan, Pakistan etc
And then there's the infamous Lockheed bribery scandal centered around the 104 deals.........
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Fly Formation on the Earth with Ease with Unified Controls F-35B
Test Pilot Tuesday Episode 34 Published on Nov 5, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdSzJFVbZ3c
"Hear from F-35 Test Pilot Dan Canin about what it's like to fly the F-35B in conventional and short takeoff/vertical landing mode with the same stick and throttle."
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Turkish Delight in F-35Bs on Future LHD Perchance
Gov't replaces Koç with Spanish design in ship bid 29 Dec 2013 /İSTANBUL, TODAY'S ZAMAN
Gov't replaces Koç with Spanish design in ship bid - Today's Zaman, your gateway to Turkish daily news
"A national warship project (Milgem) which was earlier awarded to Turkey's Koç Holding has been given to a Turkish-Spanish joint venture (JV) which used Spain's largest naval unit, Juan Carlos I, as a model.
The Turkish media reported on Sunday that the government made its final decision on a delayed tender to domestically design and build an amphibious landing platform dock (LPD) vessel for naval forces....
...Reports on Sunday said the Defense Industry Implementation Committee (SSİK) agreed last week to select the JV between Sedef and Spain's Navantia as the winner of the Milgem project, which is valued at $3 billion. This means the government chose an already existing model to a unique, local design. The first Turkish-made aircraft carrier will be modeled on the Juan Carlos I (L-61) belonging to Spain, which visited İstanbul last year. Desan, meanwhile, was offering to use a design based on South Korea's Dokdo class....
...In an effort to increase the Turkish military's naval power, Ankara plans to construct a 220-meter-long military base on the water. However, since the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) currently do not have any planes that are capable of vertical take-off and landing, the project will initially be used as a helicopter ship. Turkey's first national aircraft carrier is expected to be equipped with a system that enables nonstop sailing for 30 days and 1,700 nautical miles. Its hangar and elevator systems will be constructed compatible with Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) planes which can take off and land vertically which Turkey will acquire in the coming years. It will also be able to carry up to 100 tracked military vehicles. Two landing craft air cushion (LCAC) hovercraft boats will be located in the pool section of the aircraft carrier...."
The Turkish media reported on Sunday that the government made its final decision on a delayed tender to domestically design and build an amphibious landing platform dock (LPD) vessel for naval forces....
...Reports on Sunday said the Defense Industry Implementation Committee (SSİK) agreed last week to select the JV between Sedef and Spain's Navantia as the winner of the Milgem project, which is valued at $3 billion. This means the government chose an already existing model to a unique, local design. The first Turkish-made aircraft carrier will be modeled on the Juan Carlos I (L-61) belonging to Spain, which visited İstanbul last year. Desan, meanwhile, was offering to use a design based on South Korea's Dokdo class....
...In an effort to increase the Turkish military's naval power, Ankara plans to construct a 220-meter-long military base on the water. However, since the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) currently do not have any planes that are capable of vertical take-off and landing, the project will initially be used as a helicopter ship. Turkey's first national aircraft carrier is expected to be equipped with a system that enables nonstop sailing for 30 days and 1,700 nautical miles. Its hangar and elevator systems will be constructed compatible with Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) planes which can take off and land vertically which Turkey will acquire in the coming years. It will also be able to carry up to 100 tracked military vehicles. Two landing craft air cushion (LCAC) hovercraft boats will be located in the pool section of the aircraft carrier...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 29th Dec 2013 at 19:43. Reason: fmt
Koc Holding?
Anyway... The Juan Carlos and similar ships are unlikely to be able to sustain an F-4-sized aircraft effectively, given the limited space allocated for aviation support, weapons and fuel. Same goes for the Japanese carriers.
Anyway... The Juan Carlos and similar ships are unlikely to be able to sustain an F-4-sized aircraft effectively, given the limited space allocated for aviation support, weapons and fuel. Same goes for the Japanese carriers.
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10-12 F-35Bs + Helos for LHD (L-61) when in Carrier Config
Some more smoke on the water from LO but anyway the SpanGuvmnt thinks otherwise:
LHD "Juan Carlos I" (L-61)
http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPorta...-carlos-i-l-61
LHD "Juan Carlos I" (L-61)
"....AIRCRAFT Capability for up to 30 medium and heavy helicopters for amphibious operations or 10/12 F-35B or AV-8B+ and similar number of helicopters in her aircraft-carrier configuration.
The ship has been designed for 4 mission profiles:...
... • Aircraft-carrier substituting the old A/C "Principe de Asturias"."
The ship has been designed for 4 mission profiles:...
... • Aircraft-carrier substituting the old A/C "Principe de Asturias"."
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That would be 10/12 without anything else on board. Max number of harriers (mix of FA2 and GR7) was 18 on a CVS launch but we only did it once or twice as there wasn't much room for anything else. 12 was easy though with a mix of helos onboard as well.
As for F-35B sustainment you just need to do more maintenance on the back end of the flightdeck. Not ideal perhaps, but do-able with some constraints. By the time the Turks have this up and ready for Initial Sea Trials there will be a wealth of info out there on embarked ops, including QEC trials and ski jump trials at Pax River. The USMC may even have gone to war with F-35B and LHD by then!
As for F-35B sustainment you just need to do more maintenance on the back end of the flightdeck. Not ideal perhaps, but do-able with some constraints. By the time the Turks have this up and ready for Initial Sea Trials there will be a wealth of info out there on embarked ops, including QEC trials and ski jump trials at Pax River. The USMC may even have gone to war with F-35B and LHD by then!