F-35 Cancelled, then what ?
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Government shutdown starting to show
Not a stab at the F35, just a FYI as to what the shutdown can and probably will do if it persists according to Gen Bogdan and LM.
Pentagon: Shutdown Affects F-35 Test Flights, Deliveries | Defense News | defensenews.com
Pentagon: Shutdown Affects F-35 Test Flights, Deliveries | Defense News | defensenews.com
Pentagon: Shutdown Affects F-35 Test Flights, Deliveries
Throughout the year, officials for the F-35 joint strike fighter have consistently said the program is on track. But if the US government shutdown continues for too long, a plane that has been long characterized by its historic delays could find itself falling behind once again, according to the head of the JSF program.
...
GEN BOGDAN
“The current closing of the federal government coupled with the furloughs from earlier this year has not been good for the F-35 program,” Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the head of the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO), said in a statement Thursday.
“The shutdown is negatively affecting our ability to conduct flight tests and other areas of the program, such as development, aircraft deliveries and sustaining the fleet, are also at risk of delay and disruption,” Bogdan said. “Maintaining a stable program is one of the key drivers to keeping the F-35 on track and on budget; we look forward to a quick resolution that will enable our government to properly function again so we can continue to carry on with our mission.”
...
LM and P&W
If there are no inspectors who can OK production as it occurs, prime contractor Lockheed Martin and engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney could see delays — and delays mean extra costs.
While expressing disappointment in the shutdown, Lockheed released a statement saying it would continue to work on the F-35 unless the Pentagon asks it to stop.
“Unless we are directed otherwise by our customers, our facilities will remain open, and our employees will continue to receive their pay and benefits. We will monitor the situation and provide regular communications to our employees throughout this process,” the statement read.
“Various contracting activities for our military engines business have been suspended due to the shutdown,” a Pratt & Whitney statement read. “Lack of DCMA support is already affecting Pratt & Whitney production engine deliveries, spare part deliveries, and progress in engine component improvement programs. The government shutdown directly affects our ability to meet our military customers’ mission requirements.”
UTC, the parent company of Pratt & Whitney, has already said it intends to furlough its own workers starting Monday due to a lack of DCMA inspectors.
Throughout the year, officials for the F-35 joint strike fighter have consistently said the program is on track. But if the US government shutdown continues for too long, a plane that has been long characterized by its historic delays could find itself falling behind once again, according to the head of the JSF program.
...
GEN BOGDAN
“The current closing of the federal government coupled with the furloughs from earlier this year has not been good for the F-35 program,” Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan, the head of the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO), said in a statement Thursday.
“The shutdown is negatively affecting our ability to conduct flight tests and other areas of the program, such as development, aircraft deliveries and sustaining the fleet, are also at risk of delay and disruption,” Bogdan said. “Maintaining a stable program is one of the key drivers to keeping the F-35 on track and on budget; we look forward to a quick resolution that will enable our government to properly function again so we can continue to carry on with our mission.”
...
LM and P&W
If there are no inspectors who can OK production as it occurs, prime contractor Lockheed Martin and engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney could see delays — and delays mean extra costs.
While expressing disappointment in the shutdown, Lockheed released a statement saying it would continue to work on the F-35 unless the Pentagon asks it to stop.
“Unless we are directed otherwise by our customers, our facilities will remain open, and our employees will continue to receive their pay and benefits. We will monitor the situation and provide regular communications to our employees throughout this process,” the statement read.
“Various contracting activities for our military engines business have been suspended due to the shutdown,” a Pratt & Whitney statement read. “Lack of DCMA support is already affecting Pratt & Whitney production engine deliveries, spare part deliveries, and progress in engine component improvement programs. The government shutdown directly affects our ability to meet our military customers’ mission requirements.”
UTC, the parent company of Pratt & Whitney, has already said it intends to furlough its own workers starting Monday due to a lack of DCMA inspectors.
Last edited by kbrockman; 4th Oct 2013 at 11:06.
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It's interesting how much of the documentation regarding this 'stealth' aircraft is freely available on the web. I can't think of another aircraft whose issues are so publicly aired for allies and foes to analyse.
Given the Chinese habit of industrial espionage does the J-10 remind anyone else of the Typhoon?!
Given the Chinese habit of industrial espionage does the J-10 remind anyone else of the Typhoon?!
For those that wonder if Stealth fighter development goes any better outside the US;
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Given the Chinese habit of industrial espionage does the J-10 remind anyone else of the Typhoon?!
Janes - Israel Sent Lavi prototype to China
Defense intelligence officials said this week that China's new J-10 jet fighter was built with the help of Israel, under the U.S.-sponsored Lavi jet fighter program canceled back in 1987.
I occasionally dip into this thread but would not claim to have read every post, so if the following point has already been made, I'll get my coat etc...
Published on Flight Global today is an article about the latest update to the F22 fleet. The USAF’s Air Combat Command (ACC) Gen Mike Hostage is quoted as saying:-
(my italics)
And the RAF will do what?
Published on Flight Global today is an article about the latest update to the F22 fleet. The USAF’s Air Combat Command (ACC) Gen Mike Hostage is quoted as saying:-
The USAF only has a total F-22 inventory of 186 aircraft remaining after four airframe losses. The inventory includes 123 combat-coded, 27 training, 16 test, and 20 attrition reserve Raptors. Small as the fleet is, it will be critical to the air superiority mission since the Lockheed F-35 can only handle that tasking with the backing of the F-22, Hostage says.
And the RAF will do what?
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The RAF will rely on the knicker-dropping air-to-air capabilities of Typhoon!
Though F-35 is not a pure-bred a-a platform can you honestly see the USAF saying that F-35 is better than F-22? It also depends highly on the tasking that the General speaks of, so I would be respectfully cautious of the language used by VSOs in such statements, especially if you had bought 190 of the F-22A at c.$185 million per frame! He may speak of a scenario that the UK (RAF/RN) would never see themselves in and does not necessarily decry the capabilities of the F-35 which has significant strengths in other areas.
Though F-35 is not a pure-bred a-a platform can you honestly see the USAF saying that F-35 is better than F-22? It also depends highly on the tasking that the General speaks of, so I would be respectfully cautious of the language used by VSOs in such statements, especially if you had bought 190 of the F-22A at c.$185 million per frame! He may speak of a scenario that the UK (RAF/RN) would never see themselves in and does not necessarily decry the capabilities of the F-35 which has significant strengths in other areas.
Last edited by MSOCS; 8th Oct 2013 at 16:52.
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especially if you had bought 190 of the F-22A at c.$185 million per frame!
I know which I'd prefer my tax pounds to be funding, and it's got two engines.
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obsolescence
After the critique in Japan about the looming obsolescence of the whole stealth concept, the F35 itself is already facing obsolescence issues in some of its core systems.
F-35 project seeks to overcome EW obsolescence - IHS Jane's 360
BTW, this falls outside the original upgrade program meaning this will be an extra cost for the customers, not automatically picked up partially by the suppliers.
F-35 project seeks to overcome EW obsolescence - IHS Jane's 360
The United States has embarked on a technology refresh development track for the electronic warfare (EW) module of the F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter to overcome obsolescence issues before the system has even made it into service.
This has seen the US Naval Air Systems Command place a USD149 million contract to Lockheed Martin, as a modification to a previous advanced acquisition deal and covers the "redesign and qualification of replacement F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter Electronic Warfare system components due to current diminishing manufacturing sources".
Principal components of the fifth-generation multi-mission F-35's integrated avionics suite are the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-81 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Northrop Grumman's AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS), the Lockheed Martin AAQ-40 Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), a VSI (joint venture between Elbit Systems and Rockwell Collins) Helmet-Mounted Display System (HMDS), and BAE Systems' digital AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) system derived from the F-22 Raptor's AN/ALR-94 EW suite.
This has seen the US Naval Air Systems Command place a USD149 million contract to Lockheed Martin, as a modification to a previous advanced acquisition deal and covers the "redesign and qualification of replacement F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter Electronic Warfare system components due to current diminishing manufacturing sources".
Principal components of the fifth-generation multi-mission F-35's integrated avionics suite are the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-81 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar, Northrop Grumman's AN/AAQ-37 Distributed Aperture System (DAS), the Lockheed Martin AAQ-40 Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS), a VSI (joint venture between Elbit Systems and Rockwell Collins) Helmet-Mounted Display System (HMDS), and BAE Systems' digital AN/ASQ-239 (Barracuda) system derived from the F-22 Raptor's AN/ALR-94 EW suite.
KB - All upgrade costs will be picked up by the customers. Fortunately the unit costs will be low because upgrades will be applied across the 6,000-jet fleet that Gen. Heinz told us about in 2009.
Oh - Heinz who?
Oh - Heinz who?
Let's be honest here chaps. Obsolescence in electronic components and software operating systems is a major (and growing) issue in all modern bits of military kit. Using it as another stick with which to beat F35 may be satisfying to some, but is unlikely to be either honest or productive......
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Originally Posted by Not_a_boffin
Let's be honest here chaps. Obsolescence in electronic components and software operating systems is a major (and growing) issue in all modern bits of military kit. Using it as another stick with which to beat F35 may be satisfying to some, but is unlikely to be either honest or productive......
N-a-B...
True, but in the years to come there may be a big difference in the through-life costs of different aircraft, depending on how the obsolescence and diminishing manufacturing sources (DMS) issues were anticipated and managed.
What you want to see is an approach that (1) allows you to exploit COTS sources and (2) reduces the cost of change. In that respect I am interested in the Saab approach that emphasizes the partitioning of mission systems from flight-critical systems.
How JSF will work out, I'm not sure - but its precursor, in terms of an integrated architecture (sensors &c as peripherals to a big common processor) was the F-22, and that story has not been pretty.
So yes, it's everyone's problem; but that doesn't mean that it will hit everyone the same way.
True, but in the years to come there may be a big difference in the through-life costs of different aircraft, depending on how the obsolescence and diminishing manufacturing sources (DMS) issues were anticipated and managed.
What you want to see is an approach that (1) allows you to exploit COTS sources and (2) reduces the cost of change. In that respect I am interested in the Saab approach that emphasizes the partitioning of mission systems from flight-critical systems.
How JSF will work out, I'm not sure - but its precursor, in terms of an integrated architecture (sensors &c as peripherals to a big common processor) was the F-22, and that story has not been pretty.
So yes, it's everyone's problem; but that doesn't mean that it will hit everyone the same way.
Obsolescence is indeed a problem for all high tech military equipment, but let's indeed be honest here, usually it becomes an issue a fair amount of time after it becomes operational, not before.
Conservative, tested, stable, reliable, safe, approved and hardened is more important than 'new'.
Last edited by peter we; 9th Oct 2013 at 16:02.
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F-35s Pass 10,000 Flight Hours
F-35 Lightning II Program Surpasses 10,000 Flight Hours 10 Oct 2013
Lockheed Martin Corporation (via noodls) / F-35 Lightning II Program Surpasses 10,000 Flight Hours
"FORT WORTH, Texas, Oct. 9, 2013 - The Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] F-35 Lightning II program continues its operational maturation, surpassing 10,000 flight hours in September. More than half of the total hours were accumulated in just the past 11 months. Through September, F-35s flew 6,492 times for a total of 10,077 flight hours. The new milestone effectively doubles the safe flight operations of the F-35 in a year, compared to reaching 5,000 flight hours in six years...."
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Is the fact that the F35 has achieved 10,000 hours flying time something to celebrate? As I understand it there is a long long way to go till software version 3f planes with fully signed off airframes are coming down the Fort Worth production line.
I noticed that the Rafale was celebrating 100,000 hours last week, a number of years after IOC was declared by the MN.
Is there a view on how many flying hours will be necessary before 3f software planes are signed off for use in squadron service?
I noticed that the Rafale was celebrating 100,000 hours last week, a number of years after IOC was declared by the MN.
Is there a view on how many flying hours will be necessary before 3f software planes are signed off for use in squadron service?
It's most important that the aircraft are flying. Otherwise they would be sitting on the ground in long lines, and this would be embarrassing to the bosses at the Pentagon and LockMart.
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Ok fine I think I understand, the display teams are grounded, many federal employees are not being paid, National Monuments are closed to the public etc.
However we need to keep racking up hours in a plane that is not fit for combat, none of the examples except a few F35Bs with the USMC will achieve IOC without a major overall of their systems at a depot and ground crew are being trained to maintain and fault find this complex plane that has yet in some cases to have all its systems working.
All this just so the DoD and LM feel good?
However we need to keep racking up hours in a plane that is not fit for combat, none of the examples except a few F35Bs with the USMC will achieve IOC without a major overall of their systems at a depot and ground crew are being trained to maintain and fault find this complex plane that has yet in some cases to have all its systems working.
All this just so the DoD and LM feel good?