More GR4 to Afghanistan
To provide cross-cover, another pair of eyes (or pair of pairs of eyes!), enable yo-yo refuelling etc.
More importantly, if a JTAR asks for a pair of GR4s then you can usually expect at least 1
More importantly, if a JTAR asks for a pair of GR4s then you can usually expect at least 1
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"Just toanswer the question 'why send Tornado?". Believe it or not less than 50% of Joint Tactical Air Requests (JTARs) from Coalition Forces on the ground are being "serviced" recently. So ISAF have asked for more FJs. So all the wokka mates can shut the f@ck up with the "we don't need FJs anymore, what we need is more wokkas!".
And who asked for the FJs? General P - the head cheese as I understand it. He's also asked for E3s to control the CAS stacks instead of the rank amateurs from LFs that do it now.
And that Ladies and Gents is why you need an Air Force - I thank you..."
To be honest, when I read this thread, I did not feel that anyone was really questioning the choice of aircraft, or pushing for for of anything else...Chinook or otherwise. Maybe it is just me, but the thread seemed to have mostly stayed with the number of airframes, and the way in which it was announced.
IMHO the thing in a lot of folks minds is that if less than 50% of requests are being serviced (as you point out), and lets say this two more GR4's will bring it to 50%, then surely we need at least twenty out there!
And who asked for the FJs? General P - the head cheese as I understand it. He's also asked for E3s to control the CAS stacks instead of the rank amateurs from LFs that do it now.
And that Ladies and Gents is why you need an Air Force - I thank you..."
To be honest, when I read this thread, I did not feel that anyone was really questioning the choice of aircraft, or pushing for for of anything else...Chinook or otherwise. Maybe it is just me, but the thread seemed to have mostly stayed with the number of airframes, and the way in which it was announced.
IMHO the thing in a lot of folks minds is that if less than 50% of requests are being serviced (as you point out), and lets say this two more GR4's will bring it to 50%, then surely we need at least twenty out there!
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Anybody would think from the comments that the Tornado was the only FJ providing gound support in theatre! If all the coalition partners providing fast air provided an extra 2 aircraft to the fight and allowed them to be used as required by the ground forces without national caveats coming in to play then I'm sure the boys would be a lot happier.
As with other recent additions in theatre the extra aircraft are most welcome and will be utilised to the max.
As with other recent additions in theatre the extra aircraft are most welcome and will be utilised to the max.
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So the GR4s have finally admitted that they need more jets to do the same job that the Harrier Force did with less jets. Oh, and by all accounts it's now significantly less 'busy'. Good job everybody.
BS
Are they doing the
?
Didn't realise Harrier carried RAPTOR
And according to here the Harriers routinely had 8 jets in theatre. I'm also fairly certain they "increased" this number to cover particular operations once in a whilse .....
And I love Barnstormers comment
Could these extra 2 jets be the start of a bit of light blue mission creep to ensure the future of the TGRF and the demise of FW FAA ....
. And get returned home sometime in November!
Nothing like fighting amongst ourselves and trying to score points of each other to bring a smile to the Treasury's faces!
Are they doing the
same job that the Harrier Force did
Didn't realise Harrier carried RAPTOR
And according to here the Harriers routinely had 8 jets in theatre. I'm also fairly certain they "increased" this number to cover particular operations once in a whilse .....
And I love Barnstormers comment
then surely we need at least twenty out there
. And get returned home sometime in November!Nothing like fighting amongst ourselves and trying to score points of each other to bring a smile to the Treasury's faces!
Wrath,
Re your comments on TGRF trying to ensure their future post SDR.......
I fully admit that I have no specific knowledge of what they did, or who asked for them, but, from an outsiders perspective, the deployment of 2 E-3Ds into theatre for about 8 weeks at the beginning of the year (or was it end of 2009?) did seem to be about showing they had an operational role, and increasing their profile before talk of any cuts......
I could well be wrong, and will no doubt be put in my place (flamed?) shortly - but the most important word in the paragraph above is "seem"!
Re your comments on TGRF trying to ensure their future post SDR.......
I fully admit that I have no specific knowledge of what they did, or who asked for them, but, from an outsiders perspective, the deployment of 2 E-3Ds into theatre for about 8 weeks at the beginning of the year (or was it end of 2009?) did seem to be about showing they had an operational role, and increasing their profile before talk of any cuts......
I could well be wrong, and will no doubt be put in my place (flamed?) shortly - but the most important word in the paragraph above is "seem"!
Defending the Fox
Some of the comments above are being very unfair on the SoS. The fact that he is a doctor by background does not disqualify him from the job. He has had the defence brief for some time. Some one I know very well has met him both in the UK and in Afghan (this week), and says he "gets it".
Furthermore I don't think the guys on the ground are too fussed as to what ISAF member's flag is on the tailfin of the fast air that they request as long as it is 1) quick to the TIC, and 2) effective.
The fact that he had only 2 GR4's in his locker is a reflection on the actions of Cyclops and his tribe rather than DC's mob, surely?
Furthermore I don't think the guys on the ground are too fussed as to what ISAF member's flag is on the tailfin of the fast air that they request as long as it is 1) quick to the TIC, and 2) effective.
The fact that he had only 2 GR4's in his locker is a reflection on the actions of Cyclops and his tribe rather than DC's mob, surely?
Biggus
I suspect there is a lot of 'looking busy' going on at the moment - the single service PR teams will be in overdrive looking for any excuse to 'big up' an under threat capability. Surprised there hasn't been a bit of "Argentina vs Falkland Islands" sabre rattling of late ....
I suspect there is a lot of 'looking busy' going on at the moment - the single service PR teams will be in overdrive looking for any excuse to 'big up' an under threat capability. Surprised there hasn't been a bit of "Argentina vs Falkland Islands" sabre rattling of late ....
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Wrathmonk.
Just to be sure you don't keep mis-understanding my comment (even though I did not suggest any other service could fill the role, or suggest any hidden agenda). I really could not care less if you or anyone suspects any hidden agenda, but I would wager, that if troops on the ground were asked if ten GR4's were enough to do all the tasking's requested of them, and with a quick response time for CAS work......They would say no!
You see I have a green background, and really don't care for silly rivalry games.
What I do know is that having ten aircraft in theatre does not mean:
There will always be ten aircraft serviceable at any time.
That ten separate missions will be able to be done at once
Our troops feel fully supported (by the government).
You can feel free to think what you like, but I stand by what I say. The Tornado's will have many different jobs to do. They like to operate in pairs, for good reason. There are tens of thousands of troops for them to support and Afghanistan is a big country if you are under fire and waiting for help!
Just to be sure you don't keep mis-understanding my comment (even though I did not suggest any other service could fill the role, or suggest any hidden agenda). I really could not care less if you or anyone suspects any hidden agenda, but I would wager, that if troops on the ground were asked if ten GR4's were enough to do all the tasking's requested of them, and with a quick response time for CAS work......They would say no!
You see I have a green background, and really don't care for silly rivalry games.
What I do know is that having ten aircraft in theatre does not mean:
There will always be ten aircraft serviceable at any time.
That ten separate missions will be able to be done at once
Our troops feel fully supported (by the government).
You can feel free to think what you like, but I stand by what I say. The Tornado's will have many different jobs to do. They like to operate in pairs, for good reason. There are tens of thousands of troops for them to support and Afghanistan is a big country if you are under fire and waiting for help!
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Maybe it is the realisation that if the fleet will come to an end shortly then there is no need to conserve fleet hours and we can blow them a bit faster before endex.............
HEDP
HEDP
Barnstormer
Thank you for your kind words. Can I refer you to my post #5 in this thread and you will see that I think you and I broadly agree.
If you are unable to see the humour (and sarcasm) in my posts, as reflected by the and the , in what is rapidly becoming a board full of Armchair Admirals and Air Marshals 'willy waving' (not that it will influence any decision making whatsoever) then I perhaps need to be a bit more blunt.
PS - Edited 'cause I guess the post below is aimed at me
. Fair cop - serves me right for trying to offer a bit of "ground truth" amongst the bollox.
PPS - and, because of my own background, I am more than aware of the many different jobs that the Tornado currently undertakes and why they like to operate in pairs!
Thank you for your kind words. Can I refer you to my post #5 in this thread and you will see that I think you and I broadly agree.
If you are unable to see the humour (and sarcasm) in my posts, as reflected by the
and the , in what is rapidly becoming a board full of Armchair Admirals and Air Marshals 'willy waving' (not that it will influence any decision making whatsoever) then I perhaps need to be a bit more blunt.PS - Edited 'cause I guess the post below is aimed at me
. Fair cop - serves me right for trying to offer a bit of "ground truth" amongst the bollox. PPS - and, because of my own background, I am more than aware of the many different jobs that the Tornado currently undertakes and why they like to operate in pairs!
Last edited by Wrathmonk; 12th Aug 2010 at 20:50.
