Defence Review Result at End of October
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Leon -its alright saying that the cost per hour of a Harrier is 36K as opposed to 30K however from my ground based experience of both types it often used to take two Tornados to guarantee getting one in the air so the savings are not quite there! Then factor in the higher cost of keeping the Tornado going due to the life remaining on the airframes -the Harriers had life extension measures carried out on the JUMP program -the Harrier is good for better than 2018 bearing in mind that some airframes are still sub 3000 hrs and the benefits of keeping Tornado are far outweighed by the flexibility of Harrier.
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Interesting Radio 5 interview with Liam Fox just now. The interviewer asked specific questions about the carriers, asking him whether the carriers will come into service with no fighters onboard to which Fox moreorless said until the F-35 comes into service. He also mentioned something or other about the fleet of Tornado and Typhoon, so I guess that confirms the Harrier is gone. Interoperability with Allies talked about again, particularly the US, but he refused to give anything away again.
Riley
The Harrier is a simpler aircraft than Tornado, so I don't doubt that the serviceability rate is different. However, this also factored into the DASA "full cost" as it looks at fleet sizes and cost of operation.
Anyway, save for VSTOL, the Tornado offers more capability and with 2 engines probably more survivability.
LJ
The Harrier is a simpler aircraft than Tornado, so I don't doubt that the serviceability rate is different. However, this also factored into the DASA "full cost" as it looks at fleet sizes and cost of operation.
Anyway, save for VSTOL, the Tornado offers more capability and with 2 engines probably more survivability.
LJ
Liam Fox by name and Fox by nature. His release to press of that letter he wrote was a master stroke. The investigation is all smoke and mirrors, but there are people in his department who have the nations defence at heart and he should be knighted for the coup he has just pulled off. A reduction in cuts from 25% to 8% is nothing short of spectacular.
The problem is: will the money be well spent.
I reiterate; it should be spent on the following priorities:
Anti Terrorism - hence the intelligence service needs to be fully funded and supported (blank cheque book almost).
Defending cyber attacks.
UAV's.
Air Support.
Amphibious support craft
Special Forces / Rapid response teams.
TA - pay as you fight.
Cut out and do away with anything related to the cold war and major conventional conflict - we can't cope, nor are we designed for this any longer.
the world has changed.
Britain has slipped insidiously to the second defence division....guess what - so has nearly everyone else, including our natural enemies.
The problem is: will the money be well spent.
I reiterate; it should be spent on the following priorities:
Anti Terrorism - hence the intelligence service needs to be fully funded and supported (blank cheque book almost).
Defending cyber attacks.
UAV's.
Air Support.
Amphibious support craft
Special Forces / Rapid response teams.
TA - pay as you fight.
Cut out and do away with anything related to the cold war and major conventional conflict - we can't cope, nor are we designed for this any longer.
the world has changed.
Britain has slipped insidiously to the second defence division....guess what - so has nearly everyone else, including our natural enemies.
OK Thomas the Tank Engine.What will UAVs be used for - air defence, ISTAR, interdiction? Manpower savings? nil. And what if the bad guys have AAA or MANPADS or even a 1st generation fighter (M-17, M-21, for example). Everything would be splashed. I could go on, but no one listens...
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As I said before, attachd to the GR4 force is the whole fast-jet nav training system from recruitment, selection, Domine, Tucano and Hawk training.
The saving would be gained across a far greater spectrum of the RAF than would be gained from simply disbanding the GR9s.
There would ne no need for sudden death on the GR4 either. Simply turn off the training tap. AFAIK recruitment was frozen anyway. Stop first the Dominies as the last courses go through, with maybe a smaller sqn for the ME nav stream. If the MRA4 also goes then all the Doms could go. Then the Tucano sqn as the last guys progress and then the Hawk. The Reds could get what is left if the Nav Hawks and that would prolong the life of the Reds with no additional procurement cost.
For navs in the training system I could foresee really hardball. No recourses simply to get them up to speed - hack it or go would be the order of the day.
The saving would be gained across a far greater spectrum of the RAF than would be gained from simply disbanding the GR9s.
There would ne no need for sudden death on the GR4 either. Simply turn off the training tap. AFAIK recruitment was frozen anyway. Stop first the Dominies as the last courses go through, with maybe a smaller sqn for the ME nav stream. If the MRA4 also goes then all the Doms could go. Then the Tucano sqn as the last guys progress and then the Hawk. The Reds could get what is left if the Nav Hawks and that would prolong the life of the Reds with no additional procurement cost.
For navs in the training system I could foresee really hardball. No recourses simply to get them up to speed - hack it or go would be the order of the day.
PN,
What ME nav stream?
Given the planned OSD for the GR4, and the imminent folding of the F3 fleet about to provide some spare FJ WSOs, surely we can't be many years away from turning off the GR4 WSO system anyway? What little we need is also supposed to be going out to contract (MFTS) which presumably will mean the RAF no longer providing Dominees/Tucanos as such.
What ME nav stream?
Given the planned OSD for the GR4, and the imminent folding of the F3 fleet about to provide some spare FJ WSOs, surely we can't be many years away from turning off the GR4 WSO system anyway? What little we need is also supposed to be going out to contract (MFTS) which presumably will mean the RAF no longer providing Dominees/Tucanos as such.
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Spectacular
The MOD blackhole stands at 12% of its overall budget and coupled with the "announced " 8% cut in defence spending that sounds like a 20% cut to me...hardly spectacular.
Carriers with no aircraft sounds almost comical to me...if Labour had come up with that one we would have laughed all the way to the parade square.
No thought by nice but dim Osbourne...
5d2d
Carriers with no aircraft sounds almost comical to me...if Labour had come up with that one we would have laughed all the way to the parade square.
No thought by nice but dim Osbourne...
5d2d
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Biggus, quite. AFAIK the only non-FJ seats for navs are the K, 10, E3 and MRA4?, oh, and the Dominie.
These are all terminal apart from the MRA4 and any seats could easily be satisfied by existing in-service navs including suitable redundant GR4/F3 navs.
These are all terminal apart from the MRA4 and any seats could easily be satisfied by existing in-service navs including suitable redundant GR4/F3 navs.
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If the GR9 fleet does close, do you think any of the pilots would swallow their pride and become 2-seat losers?
Any sense would see Harrier stay and Tonkas ridded once we leave afghan.
Too much to run, not reliable enough and take two people to operate, i.e. have to pay to train two people.
Scrapping GR9 and making the Pilots redundant would represent the best fast jet pilots of the last 10 years gone in a one'r.
Not a particularly good idea.
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shiko,
Did a harrier pilot tell you that?
Only kidding folks
Scrapping GR9 and making the Pilots redundant would represent the best fast jet pilots of the last 10 years gone in a one'r.
Only kidding folks
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Anyone else out for a potentially last "spin" tonight? Standby for the low flying complaints flooding in to Ops...
Is there directional flow control along the Thames??? Oops...
Is there directional flow control along the Thames??? Oops...
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National Security Strategy
"A Strong Britain in an Age of Uncertainty – The National Security Strategy" has been published today. You can read about the document here, and the full text of the document itself is here. Together with the Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) which will be published tomorrow, the National Security Strategy (NSS) sets out our strategic choices on how to ensure the security of our country and how we need the structures in place to allow us to react quickly and effectively to new and evolving threats.
This was posted by the Ministry of Defence.
This was posted by the Ministry of Defence.
Hunter Pilot's Account Of Tower Bridge Incident - 1968
First hand account by the Hunter pilot who flew under the top structure of Tower Bridge in protest at the lack of celebrations of the 50th Anniversary of the RAF and various government decisions of the day. A different time - I'm not suggesting anyone currently serving replicates tomorrow !
Jever Steam Laundry - 4 Sqn personnel Pollock 004
Jever Steam Laundry - 4 Sqn personnel Pollock 004
shiko,
That was actually my point. A purely pragmatic option would be to put all the Harrier pilots in GR4 front seats (on the basis that they were generally the best pilots through the trg system and have mostly got Op experience) and divert pilots graduating from Valley with anything less than flying colours elsewhere (multis, RW or perhaps even the GR4 back seat?!). The time for "considering the feelings" of those in the trg system is rapidly disappearing...
However, I suspect that many GR9 pilots will not be able to bear the indignity of "stepping down" to the 2-seat swing-wing former nuclear bomber and will try to go ATPL- or deployment-hunting in the ME or RW worlds...
Scrapping GR9 and making the Pilots redundant would represent the best fast jet pilots of the last 10 years gone in a one'r.
However, I suspect that many GR9 pilots will not be able to bear the indignity of "stepping down" to the 2-seat swing-wing former nuclear bomber and will try to go ATPL- or deployment-hunting in the ME or RW worlds...
'kin 'el Easy Street - get ready for some flaming from some of the RW / ME mates who roam these boards ....
If any force can cope with the "pass with less than flying colours brigade" it is the GR4. Big (ish) fleet, with squadrons rotating through the Stan for only 1 period in 7 (granted, that is until tomorrow when that might become 1 in less than 7)
How about we send these GR9 pilots that everyone believes are going to be unemployed very soon to RW. After all, they're good at hovering and landing in/on small spaces.
And I'm sure their CRM with the crewman would be faultless
Or how about we up the grade at FTS and be more decisive/clinical with wielding the axe - there isn't going to be room for 'training risks' or 'he just needs a tour under his belt and he'll be ok' brigade any more.
If any force can cope with the "pass with less than flying colours brigade" it is the GR4. Big (ish) fleet, with squadrons rotating through the Stan for only 1 period in 7 (granted, that is until tomorrow when that might become 1 in less than 7
)How about we send these GR9 pilots that everyone believes are going to be unemployed very soon to RW. After all, they're good at hovering and landing in/on small spaces.
And I'm sure their CRM with the crewman would be faultlessOr how about we up the grade at FTS and be more decisive/clinical with wielding the axe - there isn't going to be room for 'training risks' or 'he just needs a tour under his belt and he'll be ok' brigade any more.
Having read the NSS, it doesn't look good if you've got any sort of force structure...........
If you've got a holistic approach involving DfID and some cyber-chimps, you may be looking at a budget increase.
If you've got a holistic approach involving DfID and some cyber-chimps, you may be looking at a budget increase.
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Bases at Risk?
Someone seems to be leaking!
If true it will be a shame but the axe has to fall somewhere. Standby for lots of anguish and wailing from the SNP - a party that did its utmost to kick the military out of Scotland before they were in Government!!
If true it will be a shame but the axe has to fall somewhere. Standby for lots of anguish and wailing from the SNP - a party that did its utmost to kick the military out of Scotland before they were in Government!!