Defence Review Result at End of October
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I suspect that given the rock throwing over helicopter availability in the last year, near term programmes will be left alone or trimmed below public awareness levels. Chinook new buy and SAR-H look vulnerable to me, particularly the latter and could deliver the cut between them.
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Safety issue suspends Nimrod MRA.4 flight training
Safety issue suspends Nimrod MRA.4 flight training - Jane's 11 Oct 10
Flight training on the BAE Systems Nimrod MRA.4 maritime patrol aircraft has been halted after a "potential safety issue" was identified by the UK Ministry of Defence's (MoD's) new Military Airworthiness Authority (MAA) last month.
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An MoD spokesman told Jane's that "work undertaken to validate the BAE Systems safety case on production-standard aircraft had identified potential safety issues. That issue is being rectified at the moment. The aircraft will not fly again until we are fully satisfied. Safety is our overriding priority".
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An MoD spokesman told Jane's that "work undertaken to validate the BAE Systems safety case on production-standard aircraft had identified potential safety issues. That issue is being rectified at the moment. The aircraft will not fly again until we are fully satisfied. Safety is our overriding priority".
LFFC, you should've posted this here http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ra-4-a-35.html
Post #137 on page 7 onwards describes what's been going on...
An MoD spokesman told Jane's that "work undertaken to validate the BAE Systems safety case on production-standard aircraft had identified potential safety issues. That issue is being rectified at the moment. The aircraft will not fly again until we are fully satisfied. Safety is our overriding priority".
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RAF cuts 'could make Britain's air space vulnerable to attack' - Telegraph 13 Oct 10
Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton has begun a last-ditch attempt to save scores of combat jets as ministers prepare to make deep cuts in Britain’s air power, The Daily Telegraph has learnt.
Whitehall sources say the intervention may have come too late. At a meeting of the National Security Council yesterday, the Navy won its battle for two new aircraft carriers. With the Army facing only modest cuts, the RAF is now in line to bear the brunt.
Plans to order 138 new F35 Joint Strike Fighters are set to be cut to around 50, and the RAF’s entire fleet of Tornadoes faces the axe after next week’s review. It would lead to the loss of RAF bases in Lossiemouth and Marham and of almost 5,000 personnel.
Plans to order 138 new F35 Joint Strike Fighters are set to be cut to around 50, and the RAF’s entire fleet of Tornadoes faces the axe after next week’s review. It would lead to the loss of RAF bases in Lossiemouth and Marham and of almost 5,000 personnel.
Ministers have indicated that one of Britain’s current fast jets, either Tornado – operated by the RAF – or Harrier – mostly operated by the Navy, faces immediate “deletion” in the defence review. The Navy’s successful defence of the £5.2billion carrier project has intensified RAF fears for the Tornado.
It is understood that axing the entire fleet of 120 GR4 Tornado fighter-bombers would save £7.5 billion over the next five years. Cutting the smaller Harrier fleet would save about £1billion. Downing Street last night said that “good progress” was being made on agreeing the defence review, which will be published in two parts next week.
On Monday, William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, will present a report from the National Security Council. On Tuesday, Mr Cameron will announce the details of the defence review.
It is understood that axing the entire fleet of 120 GR4 Tornado fighter-bombers would save £7.5 billion over the next five years. Cutting the smaller Harrier fleet would save about £1billion. Downing Street last night said that “good progress” was being made on agreeing the defence review, which will be published in two parts next week.
On Monday, William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, will present a report from the National Security Council. On Tuesday, Mr Cameron will announce the details of the defence review.
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Yes, well done for stating the obvious. Is this like an Ebay bid? the person who puts in their bid/protest closest to the SDSR report date wins the auction?
I thought not.
I thought not.
The Navy 'won' nothing.
It's about the Defence Industry and jobs. The Tories did not have the bottle to pull the plug and see thousands of Scottish jobs go to the wall. I guess they have a point but don't think for one minute this whole sorry business has anything to do with military Strategic capability and future threats. It's about money and winning the next election.
You only had to see that sad old man Cable at the despatch box yesterday to see that we have voted in another bunch of two faced self serving, ignorant, paper tigers.
It's about the Defence Industry and jobs. The Tories did not have the bottle to pull the plug and see thousands of Scottish jobs go to the wall. I guess they have a point but don't think for one minute this whole sorry business has anything to do with military Strategic capability and future threats. It's about money and winning the next election.
You only had to see that sad old man Cable at the despatch box yesterday to see that we have voted in another bunch of two faced self serving, ignorant, paper tigers.
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RAF cuts 'could make Britain's air space vulnerable to attack' - Telegraph 13 Oct 10
Yeah, right. Bit late now Timo, considering the lunatics who have been allowed to take over the AD asylum in the last 15 years... its more than a bit risible to spend years nibbling away at what was an AD system that worked to the point where you've got next to sod all left and then suddenly try and blame it on the cuts??
You're taking theing p*ss, man.
You couldnt make it up....
Yeah, right. Bit late now Timo, considering the lunatics who have been allowed to take over the AD asylum in the last 15 years... its more than a bit risible to spend years nibbling away at what was an AD system that worked to the point where you've got next to sod all left and then suddenly try and blame it on the cuts??
You're taking the
ing p*ss, man. You couldnt make it up....
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BBC News - Spending Review: David Cameron 'intervenes on defence'
The defence secretary seemed to have got cuts of between seven and eight per cent, our correspondent added.. Mr Cameron had the "highest respect" for his defence chiefs, and had an "excellent relationship" with Defence Secretary Liam Fox, the source added.. it is believed that the Joint RAF/Fleet Air Arm Harrier force may face the axe, while some squadrons of RAF Tornado jets could be saved instead - although some air force bases will close.. The Army may have to cut up to 7,000 or so personnel over the next five years, while the MoD itself could face substantial cuts to its civilian staff.. The BBC understands that both planned aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, will be built - but the Royal Navy stands to lose a significant portion of its surface fleet, while the order for the joint strike fighters for the carriers will be scaled down substantially.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
So, it would seem to be a flip-flop from keeping JFH and losing all the GR4 squadrons - to losing JFH and keeping (some/all?) the GR4 Sqns.
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flip-flop from keeping JFH and losing all the GR4 squadrons - to losing JFH and keeping (some/all?) the GR4 Sqns.
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So, if the overnight news was correct, and the defence budget will be cut by just under nine percent, I suppose we can all start debating again 
Out of interest, what are the average ages of a GR4 and a GR9?
Could we not just keep both types, but give the Harriers all to the Navy, so they at least have something for their new carriers?
Out of interest, what are the average ages of a GR4 and a GR9?
Could we not just keep both types, but give the Harriers all to the Navy, so they at least have something for their new carriers?
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I think thats the point. I reckon CAS has been manoevering to get rid of FAA fast air.
Sacrifice your harrier and you create a massive capibility gap for a number of years for the FAA (unless they start flying Typhoon). Which means F35A rather than B will be an airforce and not a navy jet.
Boys and their toys....
Sacrifice your harrier and you create a massive capibility gap for a number of years for the FAA (unless they start flying Typhoon). Which means F35A rather than B will be an airforce and not a navy jet.
Boys and their toys....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
The RN is reportedly giving up just about all it's ASW capability and the surface force reducing from around 24 to 15 units. I don't believe they have the funds to run the GR7/9 force from their own budget.
The GR7/9 OSD is 2018, the GR4 OSD is 2025.
The GR7/9 OSD is 2018, the GR4 OSD is 2025.
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FAA Pilots won't be going to the Typhoon, they're going to the USN to train on CATOBAR types like the Hornet and Super Hornet. '801' is already over there with 12 pilots. I imagine it won't be long before 800 and the dark blue half of 4(R) join them. End result when the F-35C arrives, the RN will have at least two sqns worth of fully trained Carrier pilots to form the first sqns, and the RAF will have... the Tiffie. Just what they always wanted anyway!
As to training the ground/deck crew for the new carriers, well how about the SFDO at RNAS Culdrose? Also RN personnel can be put through the USN training piprline (just like the French do...). Problem solved!
As to training the ground/deck crew for the new carriers, well how about the SFDO at RNAS Culdrose? Also RN personnel can be put through the USN training piprline (just like the French do...). Problem solved!
So, if the overnight news was correct, and the defence budget will be cut by just under nine percent, I suppose we can all start debating again 
Out of interest, what are the average ages of a GR4 and a GR9?
Could we not just keep both types, but give the Harriers all to the Navy, so they at least have something for their new carriers?
Out of interest, what are the average ages of a GR4 and a GR9?
Could we not just keep both types, but give the Harriers all to the Navy, so they at least have something for their new carriers?
FB
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FB, the problem with your suggestion is that you don't really save very much unless you actually get rid of a whole force (I think the savings from scrapping the Harrier force as a whole were nearly ten times as much as reducing the GR4 FE@R by the same number).
The issue really is that we can't afford both a carrier capability and a capable air force.....
If we buy only 50 JSF and give them all to the RN (good luck to them trying to run a 36-aircraft fleet for 40 years with only 50 airframes, also means that only one carrier can have an air group at any one time really), AND we go for F-35C, it will be christmas for the FAA, but a massive step backwards for UK air power in general - the C's will be welded to the carriers and I don't think we'll see the 'step ashore' capablility surviving (if there ever was one) and the reductions in the forces that are available for rapid deployment will mean the amount of air power the UK can field will be barely worth bothering with, even if the RN can be persuaded to disembark 'their' jets.
The issue really is that we can't afford both a carrier capability and a capable air force.....
If we buy only 50 JSF and give them all to the RN (good luck to them trying to run a 36-aircraft fleet for 40 years with only 50 airframes, also means that only one carrier can have an air group at any one time really), AND we go for F-35C, it will be christmas for the FAA, but a massive step backwards for UK air power in general - the C's will be welded to the carriers and I don't think we'll see the 'step ashore' capablility surviving (if there ever was one) and the reductions in the forces that are available for rapid deployment will mean the amount of air power the UK can field will be barely worth bothering with, even if the RN can be persuaded to disembark 'their' jets.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
FB,
You only get the savings if you take out an entire type including all the logistic support, training etc.
Shutting down a Sqn saves a handful of millions; shutting down a base - which can take years for decontamination reasons etc, 10s of millions.
The quoted savings for taking out the GR7/9 force was around £1.5 billion; the GR4 force around £6 billion. So they've found another £4.5 billion somewhere.
Halving the GR4 force and having just one base might shave that by another £500 million over the remaining life, if you include training sand manpower costs, but I doubt much more.
You only get the savings if you take out an entire type including all the logistic support, training etc.
Shutting down a Sqn saves a handful of millions; shutting down a base - which can take years for decontamination reasons etc, 10s of millions.
The quoted savings for taking out the GR7/9 force was around £1.5 billion; the GR4 force around £6 billion. So they've found another £4.5 billion somewhere.
Halving the GR4 force and having just one base might shave that by another £500 million over the remaining life, if you include training sand manpower costs, but I doubt much more.