Royal Navy to Buy F18F
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Ps You still fail to give me the answear, why the Rafale is not good enough for the RN and FAA ?
Last edited by mick2088; 6th Aug 2010 at 08:59.
Astronaute, speaking as a Scottish Briton, and therefore more British than anyone, I personally would love for our Navy to have the Rafale!
The F35 A or C should, together with Taranis, be the Tonka replacement!
And all Nuclear equipped. This may be the answer to the expense of Trident and it's replacement. I believe SLCMs and ALCMs are what we Brits ought to consider as a Trident replacement, if cost is such a prevalent concern.
FB
The F35 A or C should, together with Taranis, be the Tonka replacement!
And all Nuclear equipped. This may be the answer to the expense of Trident and it's replacement. I believe SLCMs and ALCMs are what we Brits ought to consider as a Trident replacement, if cost is such a prevalent concern.
FB
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It seems to me that the real problem is not the JSF, but the carriers. Aldready expensive on paper, they will be even costlier on completion, so Britain might need to reevaluate this single choise. If you get something in the region of 30.000t (Italians too would be interested), RN could find the money to buy (say) 40 naval JSF, and RAF another 50. None would be pleased with the compromise, but RN will have a good portion of what it needs and RAF will have something to start with. This interim solution could save some 5-6bn (rough estimates - 2bn from the carriers and 4 from the fighters) and leave the doors open to new orders in the near future. As far as i know construction of the first keel has aldready begun, so there is little time left for this option, but it is still possible.
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with Super Hornet (or Rafale). They are both good in their own right, affordable and have plenty of improvement ahead. It's just that the F-35 is the only option that can cover both RN and RAF.
In my opinion there's nothing wrong with Super Hornet (or Rafale). They are both good in their own right, affordable and have plenty of improvement ahead. It's just that the F-35 is the only option that can cover both RN and RAF.
Red On, Green On
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Well you could be saying that in German.............
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Oh dear, looks like some of you were correct, incl, Archimedes.
Please accept my apologies for doubting your honest opinions.
Please accept my apologies for doubting your honest opinions.
Last edited by glad rag; 6th Aug 2010 at 19:33.
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And that reminds me ..........
There is little or no point in having the Ruffle, everything is labelled in French, which may be OK as the 19th Century language for cooking but pretty useless for 21st Century technological expression.
Also someone mentioned Thales, at present they are involved in the carriers design. Given that the de Gaulle came out a nose too short, if we switch to the F18, we would best remove Thales from involvement with the carriers, re-measure the flight deck and change all measurements to Imperial and labels to English.
The overall result would likely be faster implementation of design and build with resulting cost savings and ..... the Americans would understand everything!!
All round win!! 
Also someone mentioned Thales, at present they are involved in the carriers design. Given that the de Gaulle came out a nose too short, if we switch to the F18, we would best remove Thales from involvement with the carriers, re-measure the flight deck and change all measurements to Imperial and labels to English.
The overall result would likely be faster implementation of design and build with resulting cost savings and ..... the Americans would understand everything!!
All round win!!
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F-35 pricing firming up
OK, here's a better view... Canada's F-35A contract they just signed.
The Canadians have agreed to pay 9bn Canadian dollars ($8.5bn; £5.6bn), which comes out to $138.46 million Canadian; $130.77 million US; £86.15 million each for 65 F-35A... a "price for the package of one airplane and that airplane's share of what is needed to get the squadrons running"!
Plus more for a 20-year maintenance contract.
Note that "Maintenance support contracts" do NOT mean that the operating Air Force does nothing and needs no equipment... it means that maintenance functions above squadron level are the responsibility of the contractor... the operating Air Force still needs all the squadron-level equipment & supplies... which is part of the initial contract (the $9 billion Canadian in this case).
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/17/bu...17fighter.html
So Canada is getting their F-35As for below $85 million each (US)... and likely about $75 million US each (taking the half-way point between Lockheed & Canada).
As the more informed around here were aware of.
The Canadians have agreed to pay 9bn Canadian dollars ($8.5bn; £5.6bn), which comes out to $138.46 million Canadian; $130.77 million US; £86.15 million each for 65 F-35A... a "price for the package of one airplane and that airplane's share of what is needed to get the squadrons running"!
Plus more for a 20-year maintenance contract.
Note that "Maintenance support contracts" do NOT mean that the operating Air Force does nothing and needs no equipment... it means that maintenance functions above squadron level are the responsibility of the contractor... the operating Air Force still needs all the squadron-level equipment & supplies... which is part of the initial contract (the $9 billion Canadian in this case).
During the news conference, Mr. MacKay would not say how much Canada would pay for each jet. Although he did indicate that the 9 billion Canadian dollar figure includes other costs like training, improvements to airbases as well as simulators.
A Canadian procurement official, who spoke on the condition he not be identified, said that the government was assuming that it would pay 90 million Canadian dollars for each F-35 although it anticipated that the final cost would be much lower.
Tom Burbage, a top Lockheed manager for the program, said the company expected to sell the planes to Canada for $60 million to $65 million each, not accounting for maintenance, parts or inflation.
A Canadian procurement official, who spoke on the condition he not be identified, said that the government was assuming that it would pay 90 million Canadian dollars for each F-35 although it anticipated that the final cost would be much lower.
Tom Burbage, a top Lockheed manager for the program, said the company expected to sell the planes to Canada for $60 million to $65 million each, not accounting for maintenance, parts or inflation.
So Canada is getting their F-35As for below $85 million each (US)... and likely about $75 million US each (taking the half-way point between Lockheed & Canada).
As the more informed around here were aware of.
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Hello Chaps!
1. There is alot of spare concrete at Somerset International - Could be filled by ALL Wildcats when we (the MoD) get them.
2. Still spare concrete - Whatever lovely shiny new toys the RN get could still be based there.
3. Close Wattisham airfield.
4. The MoD budget is four times smaller than the NHS budget.....
5. We don't really know whats gonna be happening around the corner, is Mr A L Q'Ida (spelling!), gonna come out in some other guise? Or shall we start worrying about the Chinese or perhaps Venezula?
6. Will we ask to "Britishise" any new (to the UK) aircaft, or go down the raod of buying "as proved" & off the shelf AGAIN?!!!
Well either way, itr is gonna prove very interesting come the end of October.....
1. There is alot of spare concrete at Somerset International - Could be filled by ALL Wildcats when we (the MoD) get them.
2. Still spare concrete - Whatever lovely shiny new toys the RN get could still be based there.
3. Close Wattisham airfield.
4. The MoD budget is four times smaller than the NHS budget.....
5. We don't really know whats gonna be happening around the corner, is Mr A L Q'Ida (spelling!), gonna come out in some other guise? Or shall we start worrying about the Chinese or perhaps Venezula?
6. Will we ask to "Britishise" any new (to the UK) aircaft, or go down the raod of buying "as proved" & off the shelf AGAIN?!!!
Well either way, itr is gonna prove very interesting come the end of October.....
Other than no-one buying it and dubious support costs. Probably a lack of compability with some weapon systems in the UK inventory. No presence for Dassault or Snecma in the UK military market and no way the MoD would get away with allowing Dassault and Snecma here when BAE Systems provides fast jet through-life services and Rolls-Royce engine support. Granted, Thales is here but their specialisation doesn't include fast jet and engine support. And would France really grant sufficient ToT of the Rafale to the UK to enable BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce to fiddle around with it unless they are really that desperate to sell it. To put it simply, the Rafale - whether it is the best plane around, the worst or nothing much to shout about - won't ever figure in the selection. And if it did, it would be right at the bottom of the list.
If FA18 really is a serious option, then surely any study would have to compare it with Rafale.
Or, if not, the FA18 rumour is just that...
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Believe the US call this sort of rumour Horsesh*t!
I don't think the Govt would support the RN buying F-18F at all and here's why:
Dr Fox has gone on record saying that the SDSR will be looking for a UK Fast Air solution for '2020 and beyond'. Sadly that will rule out an F-18F unless we decide to replace Eurofighter with it - the platform is still a 4th Gen fighter with a slightly better AESA radar, so not exactly a quantum leap forward in technology for the money you could spend elsewhere.
HMG are going to be making swathing cuts to the UK FJ inventory that will help pay for a platform that will have contemporary, as well as future, growth; i.e. the most appropriate, affordable, variant of F-35 to match whatever SDSR decides is our 'role' in the modern World.
My personal view is that GR4 is going to go the way of the Jaguar (and perhaps the Harrier may also too) however, a Govt that wants to support Afghanistan until 2015 can still continue to do it with Harrier at a much-reduced cost to the UK tax payer whilst still providing top notch CAS for the guys and girls in the thick of it on the deck.
Rafale is pants quite frankly - and you think that the French would sell you the same version as theirs? No, seriously, non.
I don't think the Govt would support the RN buying F-18F at all and here's why:
Dr Fox has gone on record saying that the SDSR will be looking for a UK Fast Air solution for '2020 and beyond'. Sadly that will rule out an F-18F unless we decide to replace Eurofighter with it - the platform is still a 4th Gen fighter with a slightly better AESA radar, so not exactly a quantum leap forward in technology for the money you could spend elsewhere.
HMG are going to be making swathing cuts to the UK FJ inventory that will help pay for a platform that will have contemporary, as well as future, growth; i.e. the most appropriate, affordable, variant of F-35 to match whatever SDSR decides is our 'role' in the modern World.
My personal view is that GR4 is going to go the way of the Jaguar (and perhaps the Harrier may also too) however, a Govt that wants to support Afghanistan until 2015 can still continue to do it with Harrier at a much-reduced cost to the UK tax payer whilst still providing top notch CAS for the guys and girls in the thick of it on the deck.
Rafale is pants quite frankly - and you think that the French would sell you the same version as theirs? No, seriously, non.
GK - As far as I am aware, among the "parts" not included in the $60-$65 million prices touted by Lockheed is the big metal thing in the middle that makes it go.
Also, LM is still in dispute with the government's own accountants over the real cost of the F-35A.
Also, LM is still in dispute with the government's own accountants over the real cost of the F-35A.
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and you think that the French would sell you the same version as theirs? No, seriously, non.
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Originally Posted by LowObservable
GK - As far as I am aware, among the "parts" not included in the $60-$65 million prices touted by Lockheed is the big metal thing in the middle that makes it go.
Originally Posted by LowObservable
Also, LM is still in dispute with the government's own accountants over the real cost of the F-35A.
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And you believe that any country will give you parity? we didn't, the yanks certainly won't either, no matter what kind of contract you think you have.
What if you don't need parity and are overwhelmingly pleased with what they tell you you're going to get? Then it doesn't matter to be honest, does it?!
As for our cheese eating sisters across La Manche, they'd sell their children if it was profitable. I don't see us ever buying their cheap Eurofighter-like rush job.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Definition of Unit Fly-away Cost Used by DOD:
The standard definition of aircraft unit fly-away cost is found in the DOD Financial Management Regulations. Standard unit flyaway cost elements include the costs of procuring airframes; engines; avionics; armaments; engineering change orders; nonrecurring costs including production tooling, software, and other costs (if funded from aircraft procurement appropriations); divided by the procurement quantity.
Flyaway cost does not include research and development, support equipment, training equipment, technical data, or spares.
The standard definition of aircraft unit fly-away cost is found in the DOD Financial Management Regulations. Standard unit flyaway cost elements include the costs of procuring airframes; engines; avionics; armaments; engineering change orders; nonrecurring costs including production tooling, software, and other costs (if funded from aircraft procurement appropriations); divided by the procurement quantity.
Flyaway cost does not include research and development, support equipment, training equipment, technical data, or spares.
My personal view is that GR4 is going to go the way of the Jaguar
Similarly, I recall some rather extensive and presumably expensive wiring upgrades being done to Jaguar shortly before they were withdrawn.
I'm sure the generalised whining about MoD procurement procedures is well enough aired on this forum, but - for christ's sake.
Phil
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I am not sure whether the F18 will perform the role better than JSF. What I do know is that I was extremely proud to know that our two new carriers were to field ground breaking new aircraft.
It saddens me that we are now going to purchase a 30 plus year old design (that lost to the F16) to project UK power overseas.
I an extremely proud of the UK armed forces. I can't help but feel sad that our branches have been "pruned" by the mismanagement of our welfare and immigration policies.
Best,
SSS
It saddens me that we are now going to purchase a 30 plus year old design (that lost to the F16) to project UK power overseas.
I an extremely proud of the UK armed forces. I can't help but feel sad that our branches have been "pruned" by the mismanagement of our welfare and immigration policies.
Best,
SSS