Hawks Grounded (merged with Hawk Display Cancelled)
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Could someone please post the details here as I can't get the link to open for some unknown reason.
Seat faults are something close to me after Taylor Scott's accident with a Mk12, when I was photographer on the BOI.
MB didn't come out shining...
I've encountered true 'sabotage' on other systems and equipment, but certainly not at the user end.
On a lighter note;
I was once called by a foreman at Dunsfold " come quick with your camera, the XXXX has been sabotaged !
( A certain Sea Harrier guidance sytem, which in our case consisted of a long line of several wires pegged about 6" up above the grass ).
" The b*****ds knew which lines were live ! " he exclaimed...
When I went to look, there were rabbit droppings under each 'cut'...
Seat faults are something close to me after Taylor Scott's accident with a Mk12, when I was photographer on the BOI.
MB didn't come out shining...
I've encountered true 'sabotage' on other systems and equipment, but certainly not at the user end.
On a lighter note;
I was once called by a foreman at Dunsfold " come quick with your camera, the XXXX has been sabotaged !
( A certain Sea Harrier guidance sytem, which in our case consisted of a long line of several wires pegged about 6" up above the grass ).
" The b*****ds knew which lines were live ! " he exclaimed...
When I went to look, there were rabbit droppings under each 'cut'...
Quote:
Well spotted; always bound to get a few teething problems when a new type enters service,
Shy, tell us about the problems you spotted when the Sycamore entered service!
CG
Well spotted; always bound to get a few teething problems when a new type enters service,
Shy, tell us about the problems you spotted when the Sycamore entered service!
CG
(More like JD, "The Green Nail", he had 1500 hrs on them, "wooden rotor blades"!)
Good spot by the guy though, there is enough danger in military aviation without the "last resort" having a fault.
lsh
Avoid imitations
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The last resort? Surely the last resort is to land on and say "Crewman, clear for chock!"
A chock can never fail. Except when Norm W. lost ours.
CG, the biggest threat to those wooden blades was a woodworm attack while waiting for the crewman to catch up
A chock can never fail. Except when Norm W. lost ours.
CG, the biggest threat to those wooden blades was a woodworm attack while waiting for the crewman to catch up
When I first started working on Ej Seats in the 70's they were serviced in the bay every 6 months beit every 'other' check was mainly a visual with complete stripdown and instrument testing done on an annual basis. However on the 'visual service' we did find frayed straps and the occasional damage caused by the many people getting in and out of the cockpit. When it was deemed in the 80's that Seats only needed to go into the bay every 12 months it certainly increased phonecalls to the bay and subsequent visits out to the sqns to do ad-hoc work. The next step was to change bay servicing to every 2 years, cannot comment on that because by then I was driving a desk. I am now told (not varified) that some ej seat bays have closed completely and ejection seats are crated and sent back to a central location every 5 years for servicing?
This must be one hell of a cost saving over the years.................. but do you do cost/risk management on what some folks on this thread call the 'last resort'.
This must be one hell of a cost saving over the years.................. but do you do cost/risk management on what some folks on this thread call the 'last resort'.
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On 7th November 1957 I was scrambled at Chivenor to search for a chap who had ejected from a Hunter whilst air/air firing off Hartland Point. The tug pilot had seen him eject but didn't see a parachute. I saw nothing of note and he was never found. However a considerable number of the OCU's aircraft - if I remember correctly more than twenty - were subsequently discovered to have the drogue gun projectile lanyard incorrectly routed such that it would probably have clobbered the ejectee and was considered to be the likely cause of the fatality.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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DZ
You may know something of those events that I do not but I never saw or heard anything about MB's performance during that sad period which was in any way below par.
JF
MB didn't come out shining...
JF
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Another good order for BAE. Let's hope the contractors will be able to find more exports to make up for the savage cuts that will come as a result of the SDSR.
"Defence group BAE Systems and engine supplier Rolls-Royce have signed a £700m deal to supply India's Hindustan Aeronautics with 57 Hawk training jets.
Over £500m will go to BAE and £200m to Rolls-Royce in the deal that should create about 200 jobs in the UK.
The jets will be used to train pilots in the Indian air force.
The deal was announced to coincide with British Prime Minister David Cameron's visit to India, designed to strengthen relations and boost trade.
'Government support'
Mr Cameron said: "This is an outstanding example of India-UK defence and industrial partnership, and this agreement will bring significant economic benefits to both our countries."
The deal follows an order for 66 Hawk jets by India's air force in 2004.
"BAE Systems is extremely pleased to have secured this follow-on order for Hawk," said BAE's chairman Dick Oliver.
"It reflects the long-standing successful relationship between BAE Systems and Hindustan Aeronautics and the importance of solid government support.""
"Defence group BAE Systems and engine supplier Rolls-Royce have signed a £700m deal to supply India's Hindustan Aeronautics with 57 Hawk training jets.
Over £500m will go to BAE and £200m to Rolls-Royce in the deal that should create about 200 jobs in the UK.
The jets will be used to train pilots in the Indian air force.
The deal was announced to coincide with British Prime Minister David Cameron's visit to India, designed to strengthen relations and boost trade.
'Government support'
Mr Cameron said: "This is an outstanding example of India-UK defence and industrial partnership, and this agreement will bring significant economic benefits to both our countries."
The deal follows an order for 66 Hawk jets by India's air force in 2004.
"BAE Systems is extremely pleased to have secured this follow-on order for Hawk," said BAE's chairman Dick Oliver.
"It reflects the long-standing successful relationship between BAE Systems and Hindustan Aeronautics and the importance of solid government support.""
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Hello John,
I was tempted to mail you personally as I think myself lucky to count you as a colleague & friend, but thought I'd take a leaf out of your book again and stand up front - I'm sure you know all this.
For the benefit of others;
When Lt.Cdr.Taylor Scott, A Fleet Air Arm Test Pilot at Dunsfold, ( where Harriers of all UK types were assembled and test flown, along with development work on the Hawk and Harrier ) took an early GR5 - ZD325 - for a routine test flight, it ended badly.
After no response to Air Traffic the Harrier was eventually visually contacted by a nearby Galaxy, and photographed with the seat still in, but no pilot; the aircraft was heading West either by trim or autopilot.
It eventually ran out of fuel and went down relatively gently in the Southern Irish Sea, 12,000' down - as deep as the Titanic.
There followed an extensive search all along the flightpath, with some false alarms of seat rockets ( which couldn't be right ).
Taylor's body was found near Winchester; it became apparent quite early in the BOI ( I was photographer on it ) that the drogue chute had fired, and dragged him straight through the canopy, breaking an arm, and he was quite possibly dragged for a short time before the chute shredded.
I have been in contact with his family several times, who were a lot more up-front than I was prepared to be, so they will hopefully not be surprised when I say the evidence indicated Taylor was fighting the shredded 'chute ( the temperature probe on the fin was thought to be the culprit for the chute damage ) all the way with his one good arm.
There were various theories as to what caused the drogue to fire;
Personally I think the barostatic unit was involved, as Taylor was at 35.000' doing pressurisation checks.
Some think he was hypoxic due to a malfunction on the then new OBOGS onboard oxygen generating system, and grabbed the wrong seat lever - manual separation, which would have fired the drogue as described.
Snag is, on the Mk 12 seat for this to happen there's an interlock, one must first have tried the main ejection handle or the manual separation won't act.
It was found on inspection that many of these interlocks didn't work; hence my comment about MB.
The official theory was that as Taylor was flying into the setting sun, he motored the seat down and the drogue initiation hit a 'wander-lamp' fallen from the aft cockpit bulkhead; I photographed that being tried repeatedly, out of 40 tries, 39 times the seat sprang around it, once it contacted the drogue firing mechanism.
Put it this way; all my photogaraphs of the ( 47 I think ) of modifications made to seat and aircraft were siezed by the new manager after JF left, and unknown to me at the time BAe put up teams of highly paid lawyers against his widow.
After 5 years of bitter battle ( which I wish I'd known about ) - she won.
She collapsed in the court when she heard his last words to the groundcrew ( I had seen ZD325 being towed out that evening as I drove home, one of the first green camouflage GR5's, and thought to myself how good it looked ) - Taylor remarked " What a lovely evening ".
I was tempted to mail you personally as I think myself lucky to count you as a colleague & friend, but thought I'd take a leaf out of your book again and stand up front - I'm sure you know all this.
For the benefit of others;
When Lt.Cdr.Taylor Scott, A Fleet Air Arm Test Pilot at Dunsfold, ( where Harriers of all UK types were assembled and test flown, along with development work on the Hawk and Harrier ) took an early GR5 - ZD325 - for a routine test flight, it ended badly.
After no response to Air Traffic the Harrier was eventually visually contacted by a nearby Galaxy, and photographed with the seat still in, but no pilot; the aircraft was heading West either by trim or autopilot.
It eventually ran out of fuel and went down relatively gently in the Southern Irish Sea, 12,000' down - as deep as the Titanic.
There followed an extensive search all along the flightpath, with some false alarms of seat rockets ( which couldn't be right ).
Taylor's body was found near Winchester; it became apparent quite early in the BOI ( I was photographer on it ) that the drogue chute had fired, and dragged him straight through the canopy, breaking an arm, and he was quite possibly dragged for a short time before the chute shredded.
I have been in contact with his family several times, who were a lot more up-front than I was prepared to be, so they will hopefully not be surprised when I say the evidence indicated Taylor was fighting the shredded 'chute ( the temperature probe on the fin was thought to be the culprit for the chute damage ) all the way with his one good arm.
There were various theories as to what caused the drogue to fire;
Personally I think the barostatic unit was involved, as Taylor was at 35.000' doing pressurisation checks.
Some think he was hypoxic due to a malfunction on the then new OBOGS onboard oxygen generating system, and grabbed the wrong seat lever - manual separation, which would have fired the drogue as described.
Snag is, on the Mk 12 seat for this to happen there's an interlock, one must first have tried the main ejection handle or the manual separation won't act.
It was found on inspection that many of these interlocks didn't work; hence my comment about MB.
The official theory was that as Taylor was flying into the setting sun, he motored the seat down and the drogue initiation hit a 'wander-lamp' fallen from the aft cockpit bulkhead; I photographed that being tried repeatedly, out of 40 tries, 39 times the seat sprang around it, once it contacted the drogue firing mechanism.
Put it this way; all my photogaraphs of the ( 47 I think ) of modifications made to seat and aircraft were siezed by the new manager after JF left, and unknown to me at the time BAe put up teams of highly paid lawyers against his widow.
After 5 years of bitter battle ( which I wish I'd known about ) - she won.
She collapsed in the court when she heard his last words to the groundcrew ( I had seen ZD325 being towed out that evening as I drove home, one of the first green camouflage GR5's, and thought to myself how good it looked ) - Taylor remarked " What a lovely evening ".
Last edited by Double Zero; 28th Jul 2010 at 19:16.
"Takes me back to 1975 when...Regrettably, the cause was identified as sabotage."
...as was often the case then, when the SIB couldnt spell anything else.
Also in 1975, as an LAC Mechanic, I was once questioned by a sample of said so-called "investigators" when someone reported some suspiciously broken locking wire on a Whirlwind Lay-Rub unit.
SI Bloke: "How do you think this wire became detached?"
Me: "Was it cut or did it shear?"
SI Bloke: ".....what do you mean?"
Me: "Well, were the ends of the wire sloped like a cut or stretched like it broke? Do you have it? Can I see it and I'll tell you whether it's one or the other..."
SI Bloke: "I dunno!...No, I don't have it..."
Me: "Well I think you should know that - don't you?"
Interview ended very quickly afterwards
I've always treated Snowdrops with disbelief ever since then and have only been disappointed in their "development" to date. Nicely coloured cars today though, but they're still only good for walking dogs and checking IDs - sometimes.
Rigga
...as was often the case then, when the SIB couldnt spell anything else.
Also in 1975, as an LAC Mechanic, I was once questioned by a sample of said so-called "investigators" when someone reported some suspiciously broken locking wire on a Whirlwind Lay-Rub unit.
SI Bloke: "How do you think this wire became detached?"
Me: "Was it cut or did it shear?"
SI Bloke: ".....what do you mean?"
Me: "Well, were the ends of the wire sloped like a cut or stretched like it broke? Do you have it? Can I see it and I'll tell you whether it's one or the other..."
SI Bloke: "I dunno!...No, I don't have it..."
Me: "Well I think you should know that - don't you?"
Interview ended very quickly afterwards
I've always treated Snowdrops with disbelief ever since then and have only been disappointed in their "development" to date. Nicely coloured cars today though, but they're still only good for walking dogs and checking IDs - sometimes.
Rigga
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Ah, so it is metal fatigue;
Spoke to a guy from Babcock at Valley whilst at work today (Selling phones in Bangor, all laugh on 1...2...3!) who was talking about cracks in the seats.
Spoke to a guy from Babcock at Valley whilst at work today (Selling phones in Bangor, all laugh on 1...2...3!) who was talking about cracks in the seats.
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I was involved with a case at Gut in '78 on 3. There had been a spate of wrongly set patch switches, ie if the jock was firing SNEBS, when he pressed the tit, instead of the rockets firing, the whole SNEB pod dropped off. SIB were involved in that and I got the old 'good guy, bad guy' interview. I was the last guy in the cockpit being Flight Systems as I ran up the INAS before the Jock strapped in so I was apparently prime suspect number one. I didn't even know where the patch switches were not being an armourer and they being hidden underneath the instrument panel. The switches that is, not the armourers. The questions they asked were ludicrous as in 'What position were the aircraft in on Delta dispersal last Monday?' I wouldn't have remembered what position they were in five minutes before never mind last Monday. Anyway I wasn't interviewed again so I suppose they thought I was too dumb to have done it.
But what surprised me was the thought that it was sabotage (I never got to find out one way or the other), I thought that sort of thing only happened in Len Deighton novels. But then I suppose it was the height of the cold war etc etc. It was quite exciting really.
Ah, talking of the SIB, I also had the misfortune to do a Firestreak/Red Top course, all four months of it, at RAF Newton which at that time was plod central training school. They trained the SIB there too and I was sat in the airman's mess one day, having reached the heady ranks of corporal when two guys in M+S suits came to join me at my table. 'We're proper substantive corporals' they said, 'We thought we ought to sit together'. OK I thought, I'm off for a paper and a sit down in the foyer but do join in.
SIB number one pipes up with 'You must be on the RTFM guidance course, so what's the range of the missile then?'
My reply was similar but more robust than 'Chaps, if you think I'm falling for so obvious a ploy on your part then you are I'm afraid sadly mistaken but please do take this opportunity to expedite yourself from my company.'
Honestly, they were scarily bad.
But what surprised me was the thought that it was sabotage (I never got to find out one way or the other), I thought that sort of thing only happened in Len Deighton novels. But then I suppose it was the height of the cold war etc etc. It was quite exciting really.
Ah, talking of the SIB, I also had the misfortune to do a Firestreak/Red Top course, all four months of it, at RAF Newton which at that time was plod central training school. They trained the SIB there too and I was sat in the airman's mess one day, having reached the heady ranks of corporal when two guys in M+S suits came to join me at my table. 'We're proper substantive corporals' they said, 'We thought we ought to sit together'. OK I thought, I'm off for a paper and a sit down in the foyer but do join in.
SIB number one pipes up with 'You must be on the RTFM guidance course, so what's the range of the missile then?'
My reply was similar but more robust than 'Chaps, if you think I'm falling for so obvious a ploy on your part then you are I'm afraid sadly mistaken but please do take this opportunity to expedite yourself from my company.'
Honestly, they were scarily bad.
Last edited by thing; 31st Jul 2010 at 22:42.
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Saw a colour photo of the crack and it didn't look particularly new. It could easily have been missed as just a mark in the paintwork.
Hell of a spot, well done that man.
Hell of a spot, well done that man.
A very good spot, and I know this might sound a bit sad, but I was always sufficiantly motivated by the Good Shows to take a bit of time to look around me.
I can also confirm a bit of history with the SIB - well we all know how important those parking offences are dont we? Eventually, married I found myself on the same patch and opposite the place where he parked his car. Sauntering home from the Westwi...er, famlies club! one night, I looked at his car. The following morning he found his rear tyres had been let down. I can confirm it was sabotage.
I can also confirm a bit of history with the SIB - well we all know how important those parking offences are dont we? Eventually, married I found myself on the same patch and opposite the place where he parked his car. Sauntering home from the Westwi...er, famlies club! one night, I looked at his car. The following morning he found his rear tyres had been let down. I can confirm it was sabotage.
They are flying again! 15.52BST and one has just gone past my study window at - um! well very low.
Mind you it was that low and fast that all I could see was that it was one of the newer marks of hawk (longer nose and wingtip rails) and they might not have the same seats as the Mk1a hawks, so I could be wrong......
Mind you it was that low and fast that all I could see was that it was one of the newer marks of hawk (longer nose and wingtip rails) and they might not have the same seats as the Mk1a hawks, so I could be wrong......
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I did the Hunter OCU early in 1960. The spinning exercise in the T7 had been removed from the programme because during an earlier spinning flight the aircraft would not recover. The crew initiated the ejection sequence, the canopy detached, but one of the seats wouldn't go. As the pilot prepared to clamber over the side, he noticed that the spin had stopped. He flew the aircraft home, and his seat was discovered to have some mis-rigged cables which would have stopped the parachute from opening. Sabotage was suspected, but couldn't be proven.
I don't remember if the successful ejection and become a successful parachute descent.
I don't remember if the successful ejection and become a successful parachute descent.
Wwyvern
I think the incident to which you refer was in Sept '64. I watched the student drift slowly to earth over the Vale of Porlock as (the?) a/c did an orbit before heading off to Chivenor as the SAR helo arrived. I was most impressed ... not so my mother as I was off to IOT in a matter of days!!
I think the incident to which you refer was in Sept '64. I watched the student drift slowly to earth over the Vale of Porlock as (the?) a/c did an orbit before heading off to Chivenor as the SAR helo arrived. I was most impressed ... not so my mother as I was off to IOT in a matter of days!!
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regardless of the uselessness of SIB and talks of past sabotage - Big
Well Done, excellent spot.
to the engineer concerned - AF/BF/TR are the most important service
Just for the record any engineer I ever catch deliberately putting someones life at risk won't be an engineer again as it will be hard to spanner with ten fingers in 12" bench vice. Thats not a threat, that is a fact.
Well Done, excellent spot.
to the engineer concerned - AF/BF/TR are the most important service
Just for the record any engineer I ever catch deliberately putting someones life at risk won't be an engineer again as it will be hard to spanner with ten fingers in 12" bench vice. Thats not a threat, that is a fact.