How Many to Manage 41,000
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Wrath, I have noticed that posting often precedes promotion. The lucky receipient gets acting paid and then becomes substantive at the magic date.
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Quote:
Post SDSR
How big does the senior management need to be to run a business of about 35 000 people?
Er more like 25000 possibly less
Post SDSR
How big does the senior management need to be to run a business of about 35 000 people?
Er more like 25000 possibly less
In case you haven't noticed, which is entirely probable considering your obvious detachment from reality, even here on PPRuNe, there is already a hardening of inter-service ranks over the s**tstorm facing the current armed forces of today.
Grow up.
Wrath Monk
There is also one other fact that needs to be considered. A 10+ year Sqn Ldr is cheaper than a 28yr old Sqn Ldr.
If after your 38/16 point, 18/40 point or 22/44 point you don't draw your pension then you can subtract your pension from your wage for "actual" net cost to the taxpayer.
For example, a level 1 Sqn Ldr earns £47,760.48pa (w/o Flying Pay) a Level 10 earns £57,199.56pa (w/o Flying Pay). However, if the level 10 is past their pension point then HM Paymaster General does not have to pay the Sqn Ldr's pension of £14995 - therefore, net cost of the Level 10 Sqn Ldr is £42,204.56pa (w/o Flying Pay) if past AFPS75 16/38 point. If past the AFPS75 22/44 point then you can subtract £19,217 - net wage per year is £37,982.56.
Now, that certainly meets the HM Treasury mantra of "Value For Money"!!!
By the way, they stopped giving out Blue Letters about 2-3 years ago, and also the Valedictory Certificate at age 55...
The B Word
There is also one other fact that needs to be considered. A 10+ year Sqn Ldr is cheaper than a 28yr old Sqn Ldr.
If after your 38/16 point, 18/40 point or 22/44 point you don't draw your pension then you can subtract your pension from your wage for "actual" net cost to the taxpayer.
For example, a level 1 Sqn Ldr earns £47,760.48pa (w/o Flying Pay) a Level 10 earns £57,199.56pa (w/o Flying Pay). However, if the level 10 is past their pension point then HM Paymaster General does not have to pay the Sqn Ldr's pension of £14995 - therefore, net cost of the Level 10 Sqn Ldr is £42,204.56pa (w/o Flying Pay) if past AFPS75 16/38 point. If past the AFPS75 22/44 point then you can subtract £19,217 - net wage per year is £37,982.56.
Now, that certainly meets the HM Treasury mantra of "Value For Money"!!!
By the way, they stopped giving out Blue Letters about 2-3 years ago, and also the Valedictory Certificate at age 55...
The B Word
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The Peter Principle observes that most people are promoted to their level of incompetence. If all military officers were demoted to their level of competence, what would the numbers look like?
PN
All the more reason to abandon this two dates per year only. It then works both ways - if there is a job for you, great - go do it, get paid for it and have the seniority. If there isn't a job yet, but you're 'on the list' - bad luck. Wait your turn, don't get paid, don't put the rank up until you move to the new job. Trouble is what to do with those who get pulled to acting rank despite being 'below the line' (and never get above it
), hence my comment about the 3 year acting, automatic substantive ......
B Word
You should be in RP with views like that! Perhaps if we only recruited people over the age of 35 we would have to pay less in pension contributions and salary! Make them work to 80 as well .....! (If RP are reading this - it's a joke!!!!).
By blue letter I should have also said 'including the modern JPA format'!
acting paid and then becomes substantive at the magic date
), hence my comment about the 3 year acting, automatic substantive ......B Word
You should be in RP with views like that! Perhaps if we only recruited people over the age of 35 we would have to pay less in pension contributions and salary! Make them work to 80 as well .....! (If RP are reading this - it's a joke!!!!).
By blue letter I should have also said 'including the modern JPA format'!
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"Crap staff jobs" really needed?
Party Animal
"The bottom line is that they are needed by the ‘system’ to fill all those crap staff jobs at places like AIR which brings you back to all those 10+ year seniority dudes bouncing between departments!"
I thought the point of an air force was to project "air power" not position papers and briefing notes; in an organisation with ever fewer real bits of kit I'm sure lots of these "crap staff jobs" could go. Remember Parkinson's Laws!
"The bottom line is that they are needed by the ‘system’ to fill all those crap staff jobs at places like AIR which brings you back to all those 10+ year seniority dudes bouncing between departments!"
I thought the point of an air force was to project "air power" not position papers and briefing notes; in an organisation with ever fewer real bits of kit I'm sure lots of these "crap staff jobs" could go. Remember Parkinson's Laws!
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wrathmonk
although it is some time since I was involved with PMA, it was not the case that 3 years of acting rank automatically led to substantive promotion. Whilst you needed 3 years in acting rank to qualify for the full associated pension for that rank, there were (rare) cases where personnel never achieved the substantive rank.
regards F.O.D
although it is some time since I was involved with PMA, it was not the case that 3 years of acting rank automatically led to substantive promotion. Whilst you needed 3 years in acting rank to qualify for the full associated pension for that rank, there were (rare) cases where personnel never achieved the substantive rank.
regards F.O.D
163627,
Wouldn't argue with you fella, but you will always need some organisation that looks after governance, safety, training, planning etc., for those relatively few and precious expensive assets that we will have left after SDSR.
Wouldn't argue with you fella, but you will always need some organisation that looks after governance, safety, training, planning etc., for those relatively few and precious expensive assets that we will have left after SDSR.
As an aside, B Word, your comments regarding pensions are misleading and assume a 55 yr old Sqn Ldr retiring would draw the same pension as the 38 yr old. Not true! Money still has to be invested for the serving officer (even though it probably isn't!).
If you go to a financial investment calculator and look at how much you need to invest to guarantee (well hope for!) a certain return you will be gobsmacked.
As an example, as a retired Sqn Ldr (at 38 point), for me to achieve the same level of pension at 65 that I would have had I stayed in and retired at 55 (without promotion) would require that I invest every single penny of my mil pension, and even then the return is not guaranteed. Do not underestimate your pension - it is phenomenal!
If you go to a financial investment calculator and look at how much you need to invest to guarantee (well hope for!) a certain return you will be gobsmacked.
As an example, as a retired Sqn Ldr (at 38 point), for me to achieve the same level of pension at 65 that I would have had I stayed in and retired at 55 (without promotion) would require that I invest every single penny of my mil pension, and even then the return is not guaranteed. Do not underestimate your pension - it is phenomenal!
Paul Chocks
I don't disagree that it's a phenominal pension.
From the Armed Forces Benefits Calculator it says that a Sqn Ldr's pension is an investment of about £20k per year, which actually makes our wages quite reasonable (certainly on a par with civvy street).
Sadly, the flaw in your argument is that regardless if you're a Level 1 or a Level 9 Sqn Ldr, the contribution is still going to be about £20k per year. The only difference in my argument is that if you don't take your pension at an Immediate Pension Point, then the taxpayer doesn't have to pay a pension and thus they can offset it against the serving Sqn Ldr's wages.
Here are some illustrations:
In a year a 28 year old Level 1 Sqn Ldr costs the taxpayer £47,760.48pa + £20k for the pension contribution + allowances = Net £67,760.48
In a year a 38+ year old Level 9 Sqn Ldr costs the taxpayer £57,199.56pa + £20k for the pension + allowances, plus the HM Paymaster General does not have to pay the Sqn Ldr's pension of £14995 = Net £62,204.56
If the Sqn Ldr has been 'bed blocking' as Wrath Monk puts it and goes past the 22/44 point then a 44+ year old Level 9 Sqn Ldr costs the taxpayer £57,199.56pa + £20k for the pension + allowances, plus the HM Paymaster General does not have to pay the Sqn Ldr's pension of £19,217 = Net £57,982.56
A saving of £10,220 per year!
I just wanted to illustrate that "bed blocking" might not be such a bad thing after all! In my opinion a 28 year old Sqn Ldr couldn't possibly have seen enough service to act at that Rank - in my day, you needed to do 3 tours before being competitive for getting picked up. Which for a direct entrant was about age 30-31 and for "green shielder" University entrant was about 34 (I was picked up to Sqn Ldr at age 35).
I hope I have made things a little clearer?
The B Word
PS. I don't work in Air RP, I am past my 38/16 point and I am on Level 2 of my current Rank - so I don't see myself as a "bed blocker" just yet! But I do believe I offer better value for money than a young whipper snapper at the same level
I don't disagree that it's a phenominal pension.
From the Armed Forces Benefits Calculator it says that a Sqn Ldr's pension is an investment of about £20k per year, which actually makes our wages quite reasonable (certainly on a par with civvy street).
Sadly, the flaw in your argument is that regardless if you're a Level 1 or a Level 9 Sqn Ldr, the contribution is still going to be about £20k per year. The only difference in my argument is that if you don't take your pension at an Immediate Pension Point, then the taxpayer doesn't have to pay a pension and thus they can offset it against the serving Sqn Ldr's wages.
Here are some illustrations:
In a year a 28 year old Level 1 Sqn Ldr costs the taxpayer £47,760.48pa + £20k for the pension contribution + allowances = Net £67,760.48
In a year a 38+ year old Level 9 Sqn Ldr costs the taxpayer £57,199.56pa + £20k for the pension + allowances, plus the HM Paymaster General does not have to pay the Sqn Ldr's pension of £14995 = Net £62,204.56
If the Sqn Ldr has been 'bed blocking' as Wrath Monk puts it and goes past the 22/44 point then a 44+ year old Level 9 Sqn Ldr costs the taxpayer £57,199.56pa + £20k for the pension + allowances, plus the HM Paymaster General does not have to pay the Sqn Ldr's pension of £19,217 = Net £57,982.56
A saving of £10,220 per year!
I just wanted to illustrate that "bed blocking" might not be such a bad thing after all! In my opinion a 28 year old Sqn Ldr couldn't possibly have seen enough service to act at that Rank - in my day, you needed to do 3 tours before being competitive for getting picked up. Which for a direct entrant was about age 30-31 and for "green shielder" University entrant was about 34 (I was picked up to Sqn Ldr at age 35).
I hope I have made things a little clearer?
The B Word
PS. I don't work in Air RP, I am past my 38/16 point and I am on Level 2 of my current Rank - so I don't see myself as a "bed blocker" just yet! But I do believe I offer better value for money than a young whipper snapper at the same level
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Leaders vs Managers
Front Line vs staff jobs
The current situations is that a lot of jobs in procurement, training, safety etc are taken by serving personnel (from all services).
So we need leaders AND managers, staff AND front line
What does tend to get forgotten is that no-one believes that the training and experience that civilian project & programme managers get qualifies them to fly fast jets. But somehow we have the situation that people who are trained to fly fast jets/command ships/lead battalions etc are assumed to have the qualifications and experience to manage complex programmes.
Just a thought
Front Line vs staff jobs
The current situations is that a lot of jobs in procurement, training, safety etc are taken by serving personnel (from all services).
So we need leaders AND managers, staff AND front line
What does tend to get forgotten is that no-one believes that the training and experience that civilian project & programme managers get qualifies them to fly fast jets. But somehow we have the situation that people who are trained to fly fast jets/command ships/lead battalions etc are assumed to have the qualifications and experience to manage complex programmes.
Just a thought
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Perhaps the solution to the 'bed blockers' is to hold an inverse promotion board for officers with 10+ yrs in their present rank. The blokes who score worst are first for the chop when the time comes.
Once the SDSR has determined the size and shape of the RAF, their Airships will have to determine the structure and tailor the staff accordingly. Manning will then have to work out how many of each trade and branch is required. The excess in each should then be trimmed by compulsory redundancies for the 'bed blockers' identified in the inverse promotion board. This gets the size of the RAF going down immediately whilst the fine detail is thrashed out.
There will be no money for redundancy packages so the blokes getting the bad news should get paid off as if they had served to age 55, so that they get the lump sum and pension they had banked on. This way, they will go a little more quietly than they might have done and the ambulance chasers will not be able to cry that their clients have been disadvantaged by being let go early.
Once the SDSR has determined the size and shape of the RAF, their Airships will have to determine the structure and tailor the staff accordingly. Manning will then have to work out how many of each trade and branch is required. The excess in each should then be trimmed by compulsory redundancies for the 'bed blockers' identified in the inverse promotion board. This gets the size of the RAF going down immediately whilst the fine detail is thrashed out.
There will be no money for redundancy packages so the blokes getting the bad news should get paid off as if they had served to age 55, so that they get the lump sum and pension they had banked on. This way, they will go a little more quietly than they might have done and the ambulance chasers will not be able to cry that their clients have been disadvantaged by being let go early.
Has anyone actually seen the FCO direction on this yet? What are the FCO strategic assumptions that the MoD is grounding the SDSR on? Or is the Treasury imposing the budgetary cut first and then we are supposed to base our Foreign Strategy on the budget available - a very dangerous way to go about business?!
I would be interested to see the FCO direction - after all if they deem it worthy to scale back on certain 'intervention' activities then how much need do we have for deep strike or an airborne brigade? This all smacks of the 1930's pre-war years to me. We are posturing our forces for world without inter-state conflict - could there be a step departure from conventional forces and a new Cyber-War brigade set up to battle adversaries over the cyber-space? After all, one only needs a laptop and a connection to bring down a countries national grid these days, not fleets of bombers??
I would be interested to see the FCO direction - after all if they deem it worthy to scale back on certain 'intervention' activities then how much need do we have for deep strike or an airborne brigade? This all smacks of the 1930's pre-war years to me. We are posturing our forces for world without inter-state conflict - could there be a step departure from conventional forces and a new Cyber-War brigade set up to battle adversaries over the cyber-space? After all, one only needs a laptop and a connection to bring down a countries national grid these days, not fleets of bombers??
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You could argue that China have already won without fighting a single battle. Their strategic currency reserves and holdings could easily topple the US if they liquidated assets overnight with little care for the market; it would be horific as asset prices would explode.
Nope, no need for an armed force; the east has beaten the west as a society and will take its mantle as the global hegemony over the next 2 decades. The best we can hope for is less world policeman and more about shaping the landscape to cope with the lack of resources the scourge of global overpopulation will bring.
The East got our cash, wealth and assets. We got tat in return; cheap TVs, toys and branded consumerist clothing whilst we sold ourselves out to the banks, all the while inept labour government sat back and watched consumer debt spiral to well over 100% GDP over 13 years of complete mismanagement.
We are truly *cked.
Nope, no need for an armed force; the east has beaten the west as a society and will take its mantle as the global hegemony over the next 2 decades. The best we can hope for is less world policeman and more about shaping the landscape to cope with the lack of resources the scourge of global overpopulation will bring.
The East got our cash, wealth and assets. We got tat in return; cheap TVs, toys and branded consumerist clothing whilst we sold ourselves out to the banks, all the while inept labour government sat back and watched consumer debt spiral to well over 100% GDP over 13 years of complete mismanagement.
We are truly *cked.
Yep- couldn't agree more VinRouge - a war fought by cheap exports and debt!
One could offer a counter argument that the Chinese need our (the West’s) ability to absorb their exports to remain solvent - that is until such time that the domestic market reaches sufficient levels of middle-class stature to be able to support the nation.
With this comes the increased drain and risks to the environment due to more people in the world wishing for the same standards of living. For example, it takes over 1000 litres of fresh water to produce a single kg of beef. If all the rice eating Chinese suddenly switch to a high protein meat laden diet then the world is screwed!! The Chinese are all over Africa scouring the world for resources to support their increasing middle classes - Kenya, Rhodesia etc are all doing deals and draining the continent. The shift has already begun....
One could offer a counter argument that the Chinese need our (the West’s) ability to absorb their exports to remain solvent - that is until such time that the domestic market reaches sufficient levels of middle-class stature to be able to support the nation.
With this comes the increased drain and risks to the environment due to more people in the world wishing for the same standards of living. For example, it takes over 1000 litres of fresh water to produce a single kg of beef. If all the rice eating Chinese suddenly switch to a high protein meat laden diet then the world is screwed!! The Chinese are all over Africa scouring the world for resources to support their increasing middle classes - Kenya, Rhodesia etc are all doing deals and draining the continent. The shift has already begun....
hold an inverse promotion board for officers with 10+ yrs in their present rank. The blokes who score worst are first for the chop when the time comes
It may well be the lack of a generous redundancy settlement (i.e nothing more than the statutory minimum as per many other companies that have gone under in the recent months and years) will deter volunteers and the inverse board could work this time round. And anyone employing a lawyer to seek more than this minimum redundancy package will, IMHO, be wasting their money (and I suspect the "no win no fee" brigade will steer well clear of these sorts of cases).
I fear there are going to be a lot of unhappy people about in the early part of next year. Particularly those who hold a view that "there is no need to save for tomorrow as I have a job for the next 17 years". How long is the council house waiting list these days .....?
Ministry of Defence | Defence News | People In Defence | Royal Navy officer rises up the Pink List
The mind boggles? Why does the MoD feel the need to even advertise this sort of thing? I really don't get this - I thought everyone was now equal? If so, why even highlight this sort of thing? And here we are in the middle of a Defence Review?? I wonder how much this cost the MoD in terms of wages/time wasted etc?? Last one out turn off the lights....
The mind boggles? Why does the MoD feel the need to even advertise this sort of thing? I really don't get this - I thought everyone was now equal? If so, why even highlight this sort of thing? And here we are in the middle of a Defence Review?? I wonder how much this cost the MoD in terms of wages/time wasted etc?? Last one out turn off the lights....
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future of the RAF
hi all,
I have to admit that i havent read every post on this thread so please excuse me if i repeat stuff!!!
I agree with the Top End Job Culling!!! very overdue in my mind!!!
Also, i feel that the procurement system needs a serious look at. Example.....
Typhoon Landing light bulb....£509.62
Top that off with the latest rumour of issueing Stable belts (normally worn by Shineys and knobheads alike) to all serving personnel.
ROLL ON THE SDSR I SAY!!!!
I have to admit that i havent read every post on this thread so please excuse me if i repeat stuff!!!
I agree with the Top End Job Culling!!! very overdue in my mind!!!
Also, i feel that the procurement system needs a serious look at. Example.....
Typhoon Landing light bulb....£509.62
Top that off with the latest rumour of issueing Stable belts (normally worn by Shineys and knobheads alike) to all serving personnel.
ROLL ON THE SDSR I SAY!!!!
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The B Word
From the Armed Forces Benefits Calculator it says that a Sqn Ldr's pension is an investment of about £20k per year, which actually makes our wages quite reasonable (certainly on a par with civvy street).
I suspect that you have misquoted the Calculator. What it really means is that to achieve a Sqn Ldr's pension would require an investment of about £20k per year if a fund was being built up to buy a pension annuity at retirement. Sadly, there ain't no such fund!
The Armed Forces pensions (like almost every other public sector pension) have always been paid out of current taxation. At present there are about 4 "workers" (ie you, all the other Service mates and all non-Service workers) whose taxes support each pensioner (like me!). By 2050, it is projected that there will be just 2 workers supporting each pensioner (like you - I'll be long gone unless I make it to 110+!). It doesn't take a maths genius to work out what rates of income tax would then have to be paid by those relatively few workers to support the relatively large number of pensioners.
That rate would, of course, be socially unacceptable. Therefore, there is only one possibility: the "gold-plated" pensions which so many serving members of the Forces believe are their inalienable right ain't going to happen. Sure as God made little apples, those pensions are going to be sharply reduced.
Do I hear someone say they can't do that? Oh yes they can! Government is the only body which can change the rules of the game while play is actually in progress. They have done it many times in the past and will do it again in the future. So, all you happy dreamers, start working out now how you can build up assets outside the clutches of HMG so that you will be able to keep your grey heads above water when the time comes.
