Ex military in politics
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Ex military in politics
I've just been listening to an article on the BBC, provoked by the McChrystal scandal. The piece was about civilised nations having civilians as the final authority of the military. It then contrasts the UK and US histories in regards to employing ex military folk as politicians and political leaders.
This led me to wonder why there are so few ex-military MPs here in the UK, especially as I often come to the military aircrew forum and read many passionate and vehemently argued threads about how to reduce chavs, get better education, modify social benefits, implement long/short term military strategies etc. A lot of which I agree with
So why are ex military folk not going into politics here in the UK? Fed up of working for the country(done your fair share)? Seen as a losing battle? Or just like so many "armchair generals", is it a case of "armchair politicians"? I for one could see the benefit.
This led me to wonder why there are so few ex-military MPs here in the UK, especially as I often come to the military aircrew forum and read many passionate and vehemently argued threads about how to reduce chavs, get better education, modify social benefits, implement long/short term military strategies etc. A lot of which I agree with
So why are ex military folk not going into politics here in the UK? Fed up of working for the country(done your fair share)? Seen as a losing battle? Or just like so many "armchair generals", is it a case of "armchair politicians"? I for one could see the benefit.
Last edited by SLIPANDSKID; 12th Jul 2010 at 19:23.
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More likely that we ex-military types prefer to seek out some decent company.
Yarpy,
I don't know. I have worked in at least one RAF organization where the description......
"full of smarmy, creepy, back stabbing types...."
...comes pretty close to the mark (in my opinion!).
I don't know. I have worked in at least one RAF organization where the description......
"full of smarmy, creepy, back stabbing types...."
...comes pretty close to the mark (in my opinion!).
I was doing some research a couple of years ago and was reading the Government reports on House of Commons Defence debates (Hansard) from the 1920s. Listed as MPs were at least 1 Brig General, 1 Lt Gen, 1 Rear Admiral, a smattering of Colonels and Lt Cols, Commanders, Lt Cdrs, Captains (it doesn't differentiate between captains RN and captains army) and of course one Mr Winston Churchill himself appointed a Cornet on graduation from Sandhurst and rising to Lt Col by 1916. Back then we had just won a world war, had an Empire that spanned the globe and armies, naval ships and bases and RAF sqns all over the place.
Perhaps a few good quality military personnel joining parliament might be no bad thing!! It might get rid of some of those fools with no life experience, no careers in other professions and lacking in common sense that seem to populate the House now.
Perhaps a few good quality military personnel joining parliament might be no bad thing!! It might get rid of some of those fools with no life experience, no careers in other professions and lacking in common sense that seem to populate the House now.
no life experience, no careers in other professions
Trim,
I think, rather than putting down any other profession, when he said "no life experience, no careers in other professions" Roland was referring to the current brand of career politicians that seem to inhabit westminster in large numbers.
The career politician is the type who, on leaving university, gets a job as a political researcher working for a party/MP, then, after one or two attempts to get into parliament in marginal seats, is given a run at a safe constituency as a reward. Hence a late 20s, early 30s MP who has been a politicial animal all their life and never done anything in the real world!
It seems to me that most politicians fall into one of three categorys:
Career politicians
Ex solicitors
Ex trade union officials
I think, rather than putting down any other profession, when he said "no life experience, no careers in other professions" Roland was referring to the current brand of career politicians that seem to inhabit westminster in large numbers.
The career politician is the type who, on leaving university, gets a job as a political researcher working for a party/MP, then, after one or two attempts to get into parliament in marginal seats, is given a run at a safe constituency as a reward. Hence a late 20s, early 30s MP who has been a politicial animal all their life and never done anything in the real world!
It seems to me that most politicians fall into one of three categorys:
Career politicians
Ex solicitors
Ex trade union officials
It seems to me that most politicians fall into one of three categorys:
Career politicians
Ex solicitors
Ex trade union officials
Career politicians
Ex solicitors
Ex trade union officials
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and I disagree with that...
Senior military Officers have almost invariably had huge responsibilities from early on in their careers where common sense has had to be exercised and poor decisions would cost lives. They had also had to convince and lead in difficult circumstances. These traits are highly desirable (and currently lacking) in modern leaders of society.
Senior military Officers have almost invariably had huge responsibilities from early on in their careers where common sense has had to be exercised and poor decisions would cost lives. They had also had to convince and lead in difficult circumstances. These traits are highly desirable (and currently lacking) in modern leaders of society.
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How many politicians have military backgrounds? Lord West ...? Lord Stirrup...? .... about a dozen MPs.... about 200 Councillors.... Does anyone know the true figures?
ConservativeHome's Seats & Candidates blog: Those with military experience in the likely next intake of Conservative MPs
I have to agree with Mountbatten
BBC News - Far from uniform
ConservativeHome's Seats & Candidates blog: Those with military experience in the likely next intake of Conservative MPs
I have to agree with Mountbatten
BBC News - Far from uniform
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I agree also with this notion..... Why are there no former postmen or dole claimants in the commons ?
Actually, my main gripe is "Why are there so many bl**dy solicitors running the country"?
Actually, my main gripe is "Why are there so many bl**dy solicitors running the country"?
Senior military Officers have almost invariably had huge responsibilities from early on in their careers where common sense has had to be exercised and poor decisions would cost lives.
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"How many politicians have military backgrounds? Lord West ...? Lord Stirrup...? .... about a dozen MPs.... about 200 Councillors.... Does anyone know the true figures?"
These are recently enobled senior officers, reaching the conclusion of their military service. It would be almost unthinkable for a chief of whichever service to retire without a peerage.
But, in more general terms, I do agree, that more use could be made of ex service personnel in parliament ie. as MPs.
These are recently enobled senior officers, reaching the conclusion of their military service. It would be almost unthinkable for a chief of whichever service to retire without a peerage.
But, in more general terms, I do agree, that more use could be made of ex service personnel in parliament ie. as MPs.
Why are there no former postmen or dole claimants in the Commons?
Alan Johnson is said to have been a postman before becoming a union official and then an MP and then, Gawd help us, Home Secretary.
Can't answer about "dole claimants", but I wouldn't be surprised if lots of former MPs from the last Parliament are claiming some benefit or other - but then they are allegedly very prone to doing that.
It would be almost unthinkable for a chief of whichever service to retire without a peerage.
I also suggest that Alan West became a life peer and the Security Minister in the "Government of All the Talents"
more on the basis of his expertise in the intelligence world than specifically as a former First Sea Lord. He is, I suspect,the only former single Service chief to have been created a life peer in recent times, as opposed to those who went on to become CDS. Sir Richard Dannatt may well be the next?
Jack
Alan Johnson is said to have been a postman before becoming a union official and then an MP and then, Gawd help us, Home Secretary.
Can't answer about "dole claimants", but I wouldn't be surprised if lots of former MPs from the last Parliament are claiming some benefit or other - but then they are allegedly very prone to doing that.
It would be almost unthinkable for a chief of whichever service to retire without a peerage.
I also suggest that Alan West became a life peer and the Security Minister in the "Government of All the Talents"
more on the basis of his expertise in the intelligence world than specifically as a former First Sea Lord. He is, I suspect,the only former single Service chief to have been created a life peer in recent times, as opposed to those who went on to become CDS. Sir Richard Dannatt may well be the next?Jack
Trim
Sorry but Biggus got my meaning spot on. I do not denigrate any other profession (apart from solicitors and barristers of which I would agree there are far too many in the House). My hatred was targeted firmly at career politicians, not at those who have learned a profession before commiting to politics, be that as a doctor, policeman, nurse, teacher, farmer or serviceman. Personally if I could enact one law in this land it would be that you would be barred from standing as an MP until you had completed a minimum time, say 10 years, in a recognised profession. You even quote me "no life experience" - I didn't say military experience, "no careers in other professions" - I didn't say the military profession.
My point was that in the 1920s lots of servicemen went onto distinguished careers in the House. I am sure there were lots of others, from other professions, it's just that Hansard doesn't record their professions, apart from a few Drs that are also addressed by professional title.
Sorry but Biggus got my meaning spot on. I do not denigrate any other profession (apart from solicitors and barristers of which I would agree there are far too many in the House). My hatred was targeted firmly at career politicians, not at those who have learned a profession before commiting to politics, be that as a doctor, policeman, nurse, teacher, farmer or serviceman. Personally if I could enact one law in this land it would be that you would be barred from standing as an MP until you had completed a minimum time, say 10 years, in a recognised profession. You even quote me "no life experience" - I didn't say military experience, "no careers in other professions" - I didn't say the military profession.
My point was that in the 1920s lots of servicemen went onto distinguished careers in the House. I am sure there were lots of others, from other professions, it's just that Hansard doesn't record their professions, apart from a few Drs that are also addressed by professional title.
Last edited by Roland Pulfrew; 13th Jul 2010 at 00:13.
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Biggus, I was being sarcastic.
However, let us not forget AVM Tim Garden:
Obituary: Air Marshal Lord Garden | UK news | The Guardian
who was a thoroughly good egg.
However, let us not forget AVM Tim Garden:
Obituary: Air Marshal Lord Garden | UK news | The Guardian
who was a thoroughly good egg.
UJ,
You may be right "that Alan West became a life peer and the Security Minister in the "Government of All the Talents" more on the basis of his expertise in the intelligence world than specifically as a former First Sea Lord", however I would suggest that a few years as CDI does not actually qualify him as an Intelligence Officer. The RN does not have an Intelligence Branch, West was a "Warfare Officer".
It still seems very strange to me that he got the Security Mininister brief.
You may be right "that Alan West became a life peer and the Security Minister in the "Government of All the Talents" more on the basis of his expertise in the intelligence world than specifically as a former First Sea Lord", however I would suggest that a few years as CDI does not actually qualify him as an Intelligence Officer. The RN does not have an Intelligence Branch, West was a "Warfare Officer".
It still seems very strange to me that he got the Security Mininister brief.
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There is some mis-information here on ex-Chiefs and Peerages. Only retired CDSs become life peers as a result of their Service (in the last 50 years or so at least). They become cross-bench Peers and hold no party political affiliations. In the House of Lords they are refered to as 'noble and gallant' Lords during verbal exchanges.
Those ex-Servicemen of any rank who become life peers as a result of political appointments (the late Lord Garden (Liberal), Lord West(Labour)) are merely 'noble' Lords and sit on their party's bench in the House.
As for the main thread - given we have so few servicemen these days it's hardly surprising their representation in either House is lacking. Recent events have shown that many MPs are self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest undesireables (but as we elected them they're our self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest undesirables!) consequently I agree with the view: why would any decent military aviator want to become one? Of course there may also be some self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest military aircrew out there but in my experience they're a rather rarer breed
Those ex-Servicemen of any rank who become life peers as a result of political appointments (the late Lord Garden (Liberal), Lord West(Labour)) are merely 'noble' Lords and sit on their party's bench in the House.
As for the main thread - given we have so few servicemen these days it's hardly surprising their representation in either House is lacking. Recent events have shown that many MPs are self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest undesireables (but as we elected them they're our self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest undesirables!) consequently I agree with the view: why would any decent military aviator want to become one? Of course there may also be some self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest military aircrew out there but in my experience they're a rather rarer breed
Of course there may also be some self-serving, back-stabbing, dishonest military aircrew out there...
One of these days......
The RN does not have an Intelligence Branch, West was a "Warfare Officer".
Thanks for the nod, Andy - I don't actually recall suggesting either that AW was an Intelligence Officer or that the Royal Navy has an Intelligence Branch, but the illustrious Naval Intelligence Division seemed to manage pretty well until it was incorporated into the Central Staff, where it continues to flourish in a different guise.
Jack
PS A "Warfare Officer"! Well I never, but it's always good to learn more about the fellow in the next cabin!
Jack
Thanks for the nod, Andy - I don't actually recall suggesting either that AW was an Intelligence Officer or that the Royal Navy has an Intelligence Branch, but the illustrious Naval Intelligence Division seemed to manage pretty well until it was incorporated into the Central Staff, where it continues to flourish in a different guise.
Jack
PS A "Warfare Officer"! Well I never, but it's always good to learn more about the fellow in the next cabin!
Jack
