NATO concerned over RAF training

[Cows getting bigger]

When a youthful CGB joined the RAF the resident GR3 sqn pilots flew about 20-25hrs/month. They went to the sim (kicking and screaming), about twice a year.

As ever, John Farley applies an excellent degree of balance. It would be interesting to note how much 'quality' time/training pilots are receiving - be it in the air, in the sim or, indeed, on ops.

[SammySu]

Replacing time in the air with sim hours would be tolerable if synthetic training received the suitable amount of investment. But it hasn't and isn't. Hence limited slots and time available but still pressure to transfer "mission" type training = reduction in handling/emergencies training that was previously the simulator raison d'etre.

JF - I totally agree abut sorties vs hours, unfortunately I have to report that the low hours are from even fewer sorties with occasional emphasis on "hanging on the blades" to maximise airborne time due to huge pressure from on high to achieve more hours - quantity/quality?.............

We are losing competency not just currency, the more experienced can balance low hours with memory, skill, knowledge, the first tourists can't, sadly I fear we shall soon reap what we sow.

[minigundiplomat]

All very interesting.

There have been numerous occasions when we have grounded aircrew, particularly on det, when they have reached 100 hours in a month. I believe this was/is also true of the Merlin.

Future's bright, futures green. If you want flying hours, you know where to come.

[Abbeville]

SammySu said:

We are losing competency not just currency, the more experienced can balance low hours with memory, skill, knowledge, the first tourists can't, sadly I fear we shall soon reap what we sow.

He is frighteningly on target.

A

[whowhenwhy]

MGD, it wasn't that long ago that there was lots of gnashing of teeth because op flight Wokka crews weren't getting anywhere near their NATO currency because of snagged aircraft, OCF priorities etc. Has that changed with the Mk 3s?

John, the only problem with the airline pilot analogy is the increasing incidence of problems when the pilot's have to resort to manual flying because the autopilot has thrown them out. Their lack of hands-on flying through over reliance on automation is now being seen as a safety issue.

[minigundiplomat]

Granted, it is not unknown for crews to fly 200 hours on det and then for the flying to drop off slightly once home. However, most people are filling up logbooks with ink.
The Mk3's are helping a lot, allowing people to stretch the bungee beyond LFA 1, though IMHO LCR-CR pipeline times are a little longer than maybe 10 years ago.
Overall though, we are very busy and there is plenty of flying. It is not a bad time to be a Wokka mate, particularly compared with other types at present.
Can't really comment on the Merlin, as I don't know the facts.

[Blighter Pilot]

Try JSP 550 D360. or BR 767 N360 or the JHC flying order book....they all state what the minimum flying hours are.

All these publications state the minimum hours for currency - do they actuallty stipulate what you need to be competent or 'combat ready'?

And while plenty of people in-theatre are getting plenty of op hrs it's not stopping people flying into the ground or landing wheels-up when back in the UK.

Lots of hours does not always equal lots of broad experience, as many fleets have found out.

Trg in the UK is at an all time low across all types and that trg cannot, and should not, be substituted by op hrs.

[vecvechookattack]

All these publications state the minimum hours for currency - do they actuallty stipulate what you need to be competent or 'combat ready'?

Yes they do. They stipulate that Force Commanders are responsible for issuing directives regarding training minima and Competency levels. The Force Commanders then issue directives regarding Training competency levels.


It would appear that Training / Currency / Competency...call it what you like...is not an issue in the RW world.... both RAF SH people have stated that there are plenty of hours available and I know that in the RN there are also lots of hours to be had honing our skills. Is it just the FW world where hours are not freely available?

[vecvechookattack]

In the RN, Force Commanders issue directives to their Aircrew stipulating exactly what training they MUST achieve in order to maintain CR status as well as currency. Its not just a matter of getting your 15 hours per month....you MUST achieve a level of competency as well. Those competency levels are very rigorously monitored and anyone who falls short is provided with extra training.(and a short interview)

[minigundiplomat]

Training in the UK is, ultimately, training for operations (or else why do it?), so if people are flying lots on ops, do we need hundreds of UK hours burnt off airframes to practice something we've done hundreds of times already that year.

I put that out to the floor.......

[vecvechookattack]

Very good point.... If you fly an aircraft which is regularly backwards and forwards to Operations then do you need to train for it?

We still need to train those people who are new to the AOA but MGD has a good point

[andrewn]

Can't say I find these revelations regards low annual hours surprising. Like everything else in the RAF these days I expect that insufficient OPEX (run) budget forces prioritisation meaning that those areas not seen as a priority suffer, so you would expect that the following fleets are 'hurting':

• F3, 'K' Herc, GR9, GR4 (except Herrick work up Sqn)

Conversely, for different reasons, it appears as if a few areas are faring a little better:

• Elements of Rotary (Assume due to Herrick Requirements)
• Typhoon (the only sharp and shiney new tool we have)
• The Herrick work-up GR4 unit

I agree with other posters that putting our finest fliers on something akin to a starvation diet creates unnecessary risk and is both operationally and morally very wrong. In the short term I doubt things will improve; in the longer term, if the worst forecasts for SDSR cuts come true, then it may be that those fleets left are allocated a realistic amount of hours in the air - but I wouldn't bet on it.

Just my opinion.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

so if people are flying lots on ops, do we need hundreds of UK hours burnt off airframes to practice something we've done hundreds of times already that year

That's fine at first glance - but should we abandon "Train hard, fight easy"? There are plenty of occasions when op flying turns out to be less demanding than a good training workout - just because, say, a GR4 crew fly dozens of CAS missions on ops, they cannot necessarily maintain all their skills at doing the same in foul weather against well-equipped opposition, so they will still need their training in between dets. Please understand, this is not intended as a dig at what the GR4 boys and girls, or anyone else, are doing on ops (quite the opposite - all respect to those in theatre, especially the SH folks), this is simply an observation.

[Easy Street]

There are plenty of occasions when op flying turns out to be less demanding than a good training workout - just because, say, a GR4 crew fly dozens of CAS missions on ops, they cannot necessarily maintain all their skills

That's the nail hit firmly on the head. The difference between RW and FJ on current ops is that RW crews are actually doing that which they trained for - be that a resupply, a troop collection, whatever. They are practising their skills on every sortie and therefore maintaining a high level of competence. Meanwhile, FJ CAS crews will be occupied conducting ISR and shows of force, but their critical skill of delivering weapons safely and effectively will probably not be exercised at all during their tour of duty. Outside the 'fighting season' crews will not even come close to doing so. Which is good for the war, but is not good for skill currency - I was never blunter than when returning home from a stint on (other) ops. In-theatre training has always been an aspiration but is politically (and practically) difficult. The only solution is to train hard pre-deployment, and to keep each squadron's rotation fairly short - please, no 6-monthers just because "it's what LAND do!"

Meanwhile, returning to the original topic of currency and low flying:

We are asking Argyll and Bute Council to make contact with the MoD to discuss procedures for training flights in the current regime to be managed to ensure public safety. We have suggested an agreed formula where minimum flying height levels are set for pilots according to the number of hours recently flown. This is now a major public safety issue.

How about we limit FJ to 250' MSD until they have completed 2 such sorties in the preceding 14 days, before allowing them down to 100' MSD? And then insist that they fly to 100' MSD at least twice every 6 months to avoid mandatory requalification? Does that sound familiar to anyone?

[Tourist]

Easy

"The difference between RW and FJ on current ops is that RW crews are actually doing that which they trained for "

Not necessarily true if you are a Naval pilot. Deck work requires practice and some young jungly guys with a lot of scary tours behind them have barely seen a pussers gray.

[Easy Street]

Fair point, Tourist!

It will certainly be interesting to see what the services are expected to train for once the war is over and the fall-out of SDSR is complete. Most of us claim to be capable of a wide range of roles, despite the decline in available training over the last few years. I see only two ways ahead: we maintaining a similiar force size to today's, but accept that a lot of our former capability will wither due to thinly-spread funds; or we chop numbers, consolidating our former capabilities in a small number of well-trained units. I prefer the second option - surely it's much better to have a small, hard-hitting force than a large but generally inflexible one.

Much talk of 'seedcorn' capability abounds, but all I have seen over the last couple of years are the 'seeds' mounting the career treadmill or leaving the services - and it's too late to make new 'seeds' now, that ship has well and truly sailed. Like I said at the start, interesting times.

[panther_chat]

As an SH mate, I have serious concerns in this area. There is a definite case of feast and famine between dets, which leads to major skill fade and lack of progression towards qualification such as CR and TC.

[blaireau]

On the longer flights I have done, FOUR of us shared the unautomated 5 minutes of flight.

The taxiing was very demanding though.

[Two's in]

It will certainly be interesting to see what the services are expected to train for once the war is over and the fall-out of SDSR is complete.

Exactly the point about the effectiveness of Operational hours in the current scenarios. If something kicked off tomorrow with even basic elements of counter-air, Electronic Warfare and Air Defence, I'm sure more than a few people would be frantically trying to remember some of those Operational skill sets that seemed so basic when Ivan was at the door.

[barnstormer1968]

Can I pose a question, to which I have no idea of the answer?

Folks here seem to be saying the RAF has, in many parts, become a one trick pony. I also get the impression we are not on top of our game at that one trick too.

Do the USAF have the same problem?
Do other NATO air forces currently deployed on ops have the same issues as us?