General McChrystal - Hero or Villain?
fincastle, I've seen various criticisms of the American approach as not being ruthless enough to be a proper empire, to include comments from American academics, Brits, Japanese, and Russians.
Quite possibly true.
Maybe hegemon is the best we can arrange, given our ideological baseline.
Quite possibly true.
Maybe hegemon is the best we can arrange, given our ideological baseline.
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Low Flier
I proffer Oman in the early 1970s as an example of how to do it right.
However, I would like to add that our politicians & military leaders did have one major advantage over the present lot. The Oman conflict was fought in secret, away from the spotlight of the world's media. Therefore the politicians weren't constantly looking over their shoulders checking the opinion polls.
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Some of the frustrations expressed here are covered very well in a book I’d highly recommend to anyone even remotely involved or interested in our current involvement in Afghanistan (and elsewhere). ‘The Accidental Guerrilla – fighting small wars in the midst of a big one’ by David Kilcullen (ISBN 9781921372537) is a very well written treatise on the current style of warfare Western armies are forced to fight against irregular Islamic forces. The book is newly published, and so is quite up to date with some of the examples he uses in his arguments.
Kilcullen was a special advisor for counterinsurgency to Condolezza Rice (who?) and senior counterinsurgency advisor to General David Petraeus.
In a very early chapter, he cites an incident in Afghanistan in 2006 where an American Special Forces patrol was ambushed by a very large force of very competent and extremely professional Taliban. (When Coalition forces returned to the valley some time later, they were surprised at the sophistication of the ambush position and the high level of preparation that had been put into establishing it.)
As the patrol attempted to fight its way out of the valley, they came under fire from a large number of local people who were not part of the ambush, but simply farmers and villagers who rushed home to get their guns to join in the fight when it became apparent a fight was in progress. Interviewed afterwards, villagers said that it was the most exciting thing to happen in the valley in years and there was no way they could bear not to have taken part in it. (Bragging rights around the camp fire?)
It is from incidents like this that the book derives its name – many of the people Coalition forces find themselves fighting are not Taliban per se, but simply people who resent foreigners coming into their valleys and killing them. If it was my valley in rural Australia and an American military patrol came into it (as far as I was concerned) uninvited, I’m not sure whether I wouldn’t be dusting off my old .303 if I had one.
Kilcullen was a special advisor for counterinsurgency to Condolezza Rice (who?) and senior counterinsurgency advisor to General David Petraeus.
In a very early chapter, he cites an incident in Afghanistan in 2006 where an American Special Forces patrol was ambushed by a very large force of very competent and extremely professional Taliban. (When Coalition forces returned to the valley some time later, they were surprised at the sophistication of the ambush position and the high level of preparation that had been put into establishing it.)
As the patrol attempted to fight its way out of the valley, they came under fire from a large number of local people who were not part of the ambush, but simply farmers and villagers who rushed home to get their guns to join in the fight when it became apparent a fight was in progress. Interviewed afterwards, villagers said that it was the most exciting thing to happen in the valley in years and there was no way they could bear not to have taken part in it. (Bragging rights around the camp fire?)
It is from incidents like this that the book derives its name – many of the people Coalition forces find themselves fighting are not Taliban per se, but simply people who resent foreigners coming into their valleys and killing them. If it was my valley in rural Australia and an American military patrol came into it (as far as I was concerned) uninvited, I’m not sure whether I wouldn’t be dusting off my old .303 if I had one.
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John Masters, in his excellent book "Bugles and a Tiger" about his service with the Gurkhas between the wars, tells a pertinent story. After one of the periodic punch-ups on the NW Frontier, the local tribesmen turned up at the British base and demanded to be given the campaign medal. After all, they had been fighting too!
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The General had to go
I don’t really understand why some people are surprised at the outcome.
The General stepped out of line BIG TIME. Within a military framework his actions were inexcusable. His reasons for doing so are irrelevant
The President/Commander-in-Chief had no option but to let the General go. Realistically, no President, irrespective of his political leanings, would have any option other than the direction just taken by the present incumbent.
End of Story.
The General stepped out of line BIG TIME. Within a military framework his actions were inexcusable. His reasons for doing so are irrelevant
The President/Commander-in-Chief had no option but to let the General go. Realistically, no President, irrespective of his political leanings, would have any option other than the direction just taken by the present incumbent.
End of Story.
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Charlie Wilson?
It seems that western forces are having Charlie Wilson's 1980s Afghan efforts returned in kind.
Where are the Taliban arms, supplies and expertise coming from?
And how?
Where are the Taliban arms, supplies and expertise coming from?
And how?
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Where are the Taliban arms, supplies and expertise coming from? And how?
The Times: Taliban fighters being taught at secret camps in Iran
etc, etc......
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The General had to go
Remember the first principle of war; 'Selection & Maintenance of the Aim'. How do you achieve that when you've told the enemy 'oh by the way, we'll start leaving you to it in 12 months time'?
As for the 2nd principle; 'Maintenance of Morale', words fail me.
Obama should stick to what he knows best, making money, & leave the military to fight the wars.
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Lonewolf
It's doesn't matter a jot that the soldiers are unhappy with McC's tight RoE's - they were brought in because McC was clever enough to realise that to have any chance of winning in Afghanistan (a very big ask), you need to win the hearts and minds of the local population.
Something the UK learned a long time ago, and an area they excel in. US forces have, under McC shown that they are more than capable of doing this - much to their credti.
He wasn't there to be popular - any commander or manager worth their salt know that you don't have to be liked to get the job done. You don't have to be liked to be respected either.
It's doesn't matter a jot that the soldiers are unhappy with McC's tight RoE's - they were brought in because McC was clever enough to realise that to have any chance of winning in Afghanistan (a very big ask), you need to win the hearts and minds of the local population.
Something the UK learned a long time ago, and an area they excel in. US forces have, under McC shown that they are more than capable of doing this - much to their credti.
He wasn't there to be popular - any commander or manager worth their salt know that you don't have to be liked to get the job done. You don't have to be liked to be respected either.
Let's not also forget that the Sultan of Oman was (and still is) 'one of us' (public school and Sandhurst), at least in terms of background, and therefore a lot easier to advise/manage/whatever. He's also got a very mild version of Islam in his country.
I don't see Karzai introducing symphony orchestras or permitting female racing drivers anytime soon. The local imams in Kabul probably aren't quite so tolerant of booze and bikinis on the tourist hotel beaches.
Same goes for the King of Malaya (currently Geelong Grammar and Sandhurst, previous incumbent Wellingborough and Sandhurst).
Best we bell up the HMC, find some Afghani public schoolboy, stick him through Sandhurst and organise a coup. Standard!
I don't see Karzai introducing symphony orchestras or permitting female racing drivers anytime soon. The local imams in Kabul probably aren't quite so tolerant of booze and bikinis on the tourist hotel beaches.
Same goes for the King of Malaya (currently Geelong Grammar and Sandhurst, previous incumbent Wellingborough and Sandhurst).
Best we bell up the HMC, find some Afghani public schoolboy, stick him through Sandhurst and organise a coup. Standard!
anotherthing: in re post 52
I utterly agree with you. I was responding to the odd idea that General McC would be able to ride his popularity into political success, an idea that had been made a bit further up. (posts 1, 9, 10), and the assertion in the OP that he had "100% confidence of his men."
I utterly agree with you. I was responding to the odd idea that General McC would be able to ride his popularity into political success, an idea that had been made a bit further up. (posts 1, 9, 10), and the assertion in the OP that he had "100% confidence of his men."
Why, I wonder, does a certain film script keep running through my head over the whole affair ?
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. ....you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. .... And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post.
Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. ....you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. .... And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post.
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Let's not also forget that the Sultan of Oman was (and still is) 'one of us' (public school and Sandhurst)
Isn't there an Afghani old boy from Eton or Harrow? Good grief, we must be slipping up.
Indeed. I once built a suspension bridge for the King of Jordan (Hussein, his dad), also Harrow & Sandhurst.
Bloody nice bloke; called me Sir.
OK, the suspension bridge was on a field at Cranditz (using meninge pine poles and a mile of rope) and King Hussein called everyone Sir, but he was still a great bloke.
Anyway, back to the topic.
Bad Jack Nicholson quotes aren't going to help here. Politicians have every right to impose policy, otherwise there's no point pretending to supply Democracy when we don't have it ourselves. Politicians do not have the right to ignore reality however.
Is this what McChrystal was saying? Mind you, Rolling Stone is still the wrong place to say it.
Bloody nice bloke; called me Sir.
OK, the suspension bridge was on a field at Cranditz (using meninge pine poles and a mile of rope) and King Hussein called everyone Sir, but he was still a great bloke.
Anyway, back to the topic.
Bad Jack Nicholson quotes aren't going to help here. Politicians have every right to impose policy, otherwise there's no point pretending to supply Democracy when we don't have it ourselves. Politicians do not have the right to ignore reality however.
Is this what McChrystal was saying? Mind you, Rolling Stone is still the wrong place to say it.
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Channel 4 news: Exclusive: Iran supplies weapons to Taliban
The Times: Taliban fighters being taught at secret camps in Iran
etc, etc......
The Times: Taliban fighters being taught at secret camps in Iran
etc, etc......
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The UK have been very successful in counter terror and anti guerilla wars for over 60 years,
However, the point I would wish to make is that the Thompson Priciples still need to apply to any COIN operation. They are common sense and tried and tested.
I invite anyone reaing this to research these priciple and ask themselves if they:
1. They can be applied in Afghanistan?
2. If they can, then why the hell isn't it happening?
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Is this what McChrystal was saying? Mind you, Rolling Stone is still the wrong place to say it.
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OFPSLF
The military works for the civilian leadership, not the other way around.
I was fortunate that in my really 'interesting' period, when my decision making was really important, I had Maggie as PM & Ronnie was President.
I was also very fortunate not to have to put my life on the line for a numbskull like Obama. He's so bad he almost makes Carter look like a genius.