General Sir Richard Dannatt on radio 4
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Right, STFU all round.
This bitching about who is more important than who, has got to stop. NOW....
Land. the only war to take and hold ground is an army - end of. both other services have to support this with whatever they need, be it bombs or helos or pies.
Sea - we are an island, we have assets very far away and people to look after ergo we need an Andrew.
Air, well duh. If you do not control the air you will lose. therfore we need the RAF.
Just because the FJ mafia are not currently needed to do back to back bombing missions or shoot down the incoming hordes of mig's does not mean we never will.
None of our capabilities can be bought back when needed so we need to bite the bullet and pay for them now.
Remember that money spent in defence keeps the economy moving. The savings need to come from elsewhere so stop runnning around justifying your existence and saying sack him, he's not needed today!
Here's a starter for 10, (and I don't want it to be true)
Another Piper alpha occurs..... What do we do.
Or how about a cruise liner gets hijacked....what do we do
Or how about someone tries a black sunday in 2012 opening ceremony....
None of us know what is coming - do not hemorage capabilities to save a few quid that would be lost in amongst the waste elsewhere
This bitching about who is more important than who, has got to stop. NOW....
Land. the only war to take and hold ground is an army - end of. both other services have to support this with whatever they need, be it bombs or helos or pies.
Sea - we are an island, we have assets very far away and people to look after ergo we need an Andrew.
Air, well duh. If you do not control the air you will lose. therfore we need the RAF.
Just because the FJ mafia are not currently needed to do back to back bombing missions or shoot down the incoming hordes of mig's does not mean we never will.
None of our capabilities can be bought back when needed so we need to bite the bullet and pay for them now.
Remember that money spent in defence keeps the economy moving. The savings need to come from elsewhere so stop runnning around justifying your existence and saying sack him, he's not needed today!
Here's a starter for 10, (and I don't want it to be true)
Another Piper alpha occurs..... What do we do.
Or how about a cruise liner gets hijacked....what do we do
Or how about someone tries a black sunday in 2012 opening ceremony....
None of us know what is coming - do not hemorage capabilities to save a few quid that would be lost in amongst the waste elsewhere
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CS, good point but I still can not find it in my heart to accept the amount of FJs we may get? Sorry; Dannet or no Dannet, we don't need them.
As for your question - Call the SAS and/or CH-47s with medics? Can't see how 200+ Typhoon will assist any of them?
As for your question - Call the SAS and/or CH-47s with medics? Can't see how 200+ Typhoon will assist any of them?
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Been out of the loop for a while, but what happens when the AT fleet is called upon but are unavailable because they're committed to take a bunch of tourists to Torremolinos; and what does Thomas Cook say when their flight to Torremolinos is cancelled because the aircraft is needed on unexpected Ops; and what do the fair trade people say about the lack of an even playing field as the AT fleet's overhead are paid for by HMG?
Champagne anyone...?
C-S, notwithstanding your school-masterly telling off, I'm afraid you're missing the point. No-one is claiming to be any more important than any one else. I would hope that any serving (or indeed ex) member of the RAF would have at least a passing acquaintance with the concepts of airpower. Similarly I would hope that the intelligent folk on here wouldn't subscribe to the current media driven view of a perfect RAF consisting of a 1000 chinooks and a Tristar.
I hope that we all understand that a balanced air force needs it's FJs to kill the flying bad guys, it's SH to take in chaps who'll kill the walking bad guys and then the AT to bring in more good guys and sandwiches and to then take everyone home at the end. Each aspect of that arrangement needs to be properly funded and equipped to ensure it actually works.
It is precisely because this doesn't currently happen that a lot of the RAF gets hacked off listening to Air Officers ramble on about how awesome Typhoon /JSF will be when they know that their own fleets are being starved to fund it. This resentment is further stoked when we find ourselves involved in high tempo ops that are highlighting equipment shortfalls that would be easily addressed were we not tipping all our spare cash into new whizzy super jet.
The issue then that does, in my opinion, need addressing is that of how we spend our limited and increasingly vulnerable pot of cash to ensure we meet these commitments effectively. Do we, for instance, blow 90% of the budget building 100 of our own super duper fighters that can bring down the Death Star using directed thought energy alone and that can also fold time and space if required? Or do we perhaps spent 50% of the budget buying 150 off-the-shelf, swing role FGRs that could quite easily deal with roving Bears, rogue 747s, Umboto Gorge's fleet of Mig 21/23s and any other threat we can realistically expect to come up against? I vote for the latter. Especially as it then leaves enough money for the rest of the air force to equip itself properly.
I've said it before but the RAF really needs to stop thinking it must have the very latest bit of kit and damn the cost. If we compromise everything just so we can be at the cutting edge of all technology then economies of scale will just drive us deeper into the dark recesses of irrelevance. The most awesome jet ever made is pointless if we have no money left over to actually fund the training system that produces the pilot or to pay for his subsequent monthly flying hours. I'd rather be defended by 5 Sqns of, say, F/A18Fs whose pilots got 30 hours a month training than by 2 Sqns of JSF whose pilots got 5.
I hope that we all understand that a balanced air force needs it's FJs to kill the flying bad guys, it's SH to take in chaps who'll kill the walking bad guys and then the AT to bring in more good guys and sandwiches and to then take everyone home at the end. Each aspect of that arrangement needs to be properly funded and equipped to ensure it actually works.
It is precisely because this doesn't currently happen that a lot of the RAF gets hacked off listening to Air Officers ramble on about how awesome Typhoon /JSF will be when they know that their own fleets are being starved to fund it. This resentment is further stoked when we find ourselves involved in high tempo ops that are highlighting equipment shortfalls that would be easily addressed were we not tipping all our spare cash into new whizzy super jet.
The issue then that does, in my opinion, need addressing is that of how we spend our limited and increasingly vulnerable pot of cash to ensure we meet these commitments effectively. Do we, for instance, blow 90% of the budget building 100 of our own super duper fighters that can bring down the Death Star using directed thought energy alone and that can also fold time and space if required? Or do we perhaps spent 50% of the budget buying 150 off-the-shelf, swing role FGRs that could quite easily deal with roving Bears, rogue 747s, Umboto Gorge's fleet of Mig 21/23s and any other threat we can realistically expect to come up against? I vote for the latter. Especially as it then leaves enough money for the rest of the air force to equip itself properly.
I've said it before but the RAF really needs to stop thinking it must have the very latest bit of kit and damn the cost. If we compromise everything just so we can be at the cutting edge of all technology then economies of scale will just drive us deeper into the dark recesses of irrelevance. The most awesome jet ever made is pointless if we have no money left over to actually fund the training system that produces the pilot or to pay for his subsequent monthly flying hours. I'd rather be defended by 5 Sqns of, say, F/A18Fs whose pilots got 30 hours a month training than by 2 Sqns of JSF whose pilots got 5.
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Minigundiplomat and two's in,
I appear to have sparked an idea in your minds that Afghanistan is easy. This is most certainly not the case and I did not intend to suggest that it involves 'mooching about'. I admire the bravery of those who, on a daily basis, go into FOBs under fire. My point was that we have control of the air in that there is no air threat there and there are no super MEZs composed of high order SAMs to contend with. This gives the coalition freedom of action throughout the whole country to . That does not mean that aircraft will not get shot at hence my reference to small arms, RPG and Manpads. Whether we have air supremacy ("that degree of air superiority wherein the opposing air force is incapable of effective interference") or air superiority ("That degree of dominance in the air battle of one force over another that permits the conduct of operations by the former and its related land, sea, and air forces at a given time and place without prohibitive interference by opposing air forces.") I leave up to you to decide. I certainly do not want to denigrate the daily acts of bravery by our crews.
My overall point is that we need a wide range of capabilities and a balanced force comprising fast jets, SH and AT to meet the threat which could be thrown at us in the future.
Nice Castle, I should point out that I am not an air superiority fighter guy but a CAS pilot yet I still see the need for air superiority fighters in our range of capabilities. In numerous tours in Afghanistan I have not had to worry about air threat and have been able to stay on station providing CAS, ISR and other capabilities to the lads on the ground. In another scenario with an air threat and increased ground threats, without the umbrella of a concerted counter air campaign to kill fighters and suppress SAMs I would simply not be able to do my job in providing such a service to the chaps on the ground. They would then in turn get schwacked by enemy ground forces as well as by enemy air forces.
So I reiterate that the armed forces should not be trying to fight amongst the different capabilities but standing up and pointing out the importance of the different capabilities and how they all tie in together.
I say again, we need balanced air power in the British armed forces to deal with Afghanistan today but also what may be around the corner. Parochial point scoring will ultimately damage everyone.
PS please do not tar me with that staff college theory brush! I know from my own experience in dusty places that underfunding in one's own area is very frustrating and has effect out on the battlefield. In such a situation it is easy to become blind to the wider needs of defence. I am trying to take a look the whole picture and think that we do still need air superiority fighters (never thought I would say that as a mud mover!) but perhaps Typhoon will actually have more relevance in the future as they are swing role aircraft which can switch between air superiority roles and CAS/ISR etc rather than our other FJ aircraft which are either ground attack or air defence specialised. Perhaps one option would be to accelerate the demise of our single role aircraft such as Harrier and Tornado GR4 and F3 and concentrate our efforts on bringing the Typhoons up to a true swing role capability and ensuring that the JSF does come into service. In that way we would have a modern capability which is able to deal with both air superiority and ground attack in a very flexible manner whilst disposing of our older types.
I appear to have sparked an idea in your minds that Afghanistan is easy. This is most certainly not the case and I did not intend to suggest that it involves 'mooching about'. I admire the bravery of those who, on a daily basis, go into FOBs under fire. My point was that we have control of the air in that there is no air threat there and there are no super MEZs composed of high order SAMs to contend with. This gives the coalition freedom of action throughout the whole country to . That does not mean that aircraft will not get shot at hence my reference to small arms, RPG and Manpads. Whether we have air supremacy ("that degree of air superiority wherein the opposing air force is incapable of effective interference") or air superiority ("That degree of dominance in the air battle of one force over another that permits the conduct of operations by the former and its related land, sea, and air forces at a given time and place without prohibitive interference by opposing air forces.") I leave up to you to decide. I certainly do not want to denigrate the daily acts of bravery by our crews.
My overall point is that we need a wide range of capabilities and a balanced force comprising fast jets, SH and AT to meet the threat which could be thrown at us in the future.
Nice Castle, I should point out that I am not an air superiority fighter guy but a CAS pilot yet I still see the need for air superiority fighters in our range of capabilities. In numerous tours in Afghanistan I have not had to worry about air threat and have been able to stay on station providing CAS, ISR and other capabilities to the lads on the ground. In another scenario with an air threat and increased ground threats, without the umbrella of a concerted counter air campaign to kill fighters and suppress SAMs I would simply not be able to do my job in providing such a service to the chaps on the ground. They would then in turn get schwacked by enemy ground forces as well as by enemy air forces.
So I reiterate that the armed forces should not be trying to fight amongst the different capabilities but standing up and pointing out the importance of the different capabilities and how they all tie in together.
I say again, we need balanced air power in the British armed forces to deal with Afghanistan today but also what may be around the corner. Parochial point scoring will ultimately damage everyone.
PS please do not tar me with that staff college theory brush! I know from my own experience in dusty places that underfunding in one's own area is very frustrating and has effect out on the battlefield. In such a situation it is easy to become blind to the wider needs of defence. I am trying to take a look the whole picture and think that we do still need air superiority fighters (never thought I would say that as a mud mover!) but perhaps Typhoon will actually have more relevance in the future as they are swing role aircraft which can switch between air superiority roles and CAS/ISR etc rather than our other FJ aircraft which are either ground attack or air defence specialised. Perhaps one option would be to accelerate the demise of our single role aircraft such as Harrier and Tornado GR4 and F3 and concentrate our efforts on bringing the Typhoons up to a true swing role capability and ensuring that the JSF does come into service. In that way we would have a modern capability which is able to deal with both air superiority and ground attack in a very flexible manner whilst disposing of our older types.
Last edited by dogstar2; 16th May 2010 at 09:06.
Gnd
To have a 24/7 capability in the UK you need a miniumu 6ac (2 on immediate readiness, 2 on reduced readiness and 2 in maintenance) plus 9 crews (allowing for sickness, leave and courses).
If you have Northern, Southern and Falklands Q - that is 18ac, 27 crews plus ground crew. However, for the Falklands you have to man for "harmony", which is 36crews in total - which would make 54crews in total.
Now you need to keep them current, which is 180hrs per crew per year (absolute minimum - should be 220hrs). That's 9,720hrs per year which would need at least another 35 jets to support it.
So that's 54 crews, plus 53 jets plus groundcrew just to do the standing QRA task.
Now do you see why 200 Typhoons don't go very far when you want to do Air Defence, Strike, SEAD and CAS with the same aircraft type?
The B Word
To have a 24/7 capability in the UK you need a miniumu 6ac (2 on immediate readiness, 2 on reduced readiness and 2 in maintenance) plus 9 crews (allowing for sickness, leave and courses).
If you have Northern, Southern and Falklands Q - that is 18ac, 27 crews plus ground crew. However, for the Falklands you have to man for "harmony", which is 36crews in total - which would make 54crews in total.
Now you need to keep them current, which is 180hrs per crew per year (absolute minimum - should be 220hrs). That's 9,720hrs per year which would need at least another 35 jets to support it.
So that's 54 crews, plus 53 jets plus groundcrew just to do the standing QRA task.
Now do you see why 200 Typhoons don't go very far when you want to do Air Defence, Strike, SEAD and CAS with the same aircraft type?
The B Word
B Word:
Your point being? What assistance were they to the airline? Absolutely none. The airline had full communications and was in contact with their company opps by satellite phone. Even if they were in any form of distress, how could the escort help? Trying to justify QR assets with specious arguments like that is like (as occasionally happens) firefighters starting fires to justify their overtime.
Your point being? What assistance were they to the airline? Absolutely none. The airline had full communications and was in contact with their company opps by satellite phone. Even if they were in any form of distress, how could the escort help? Trying to justify QR assets with specious arguments like that is like (as occasionally happens) firefighters starting fires to justify their overtime.
Not a lot of use to the Airline, but a lot of use to Ottowa or Toronto or wherever a rogue jet might be 'kamikazied'. They would at first fire warning shots and then they would bring it down before it was flown into someone important. Being in the TA, I am sure you are au-fait with Card Alpha and 'risk to life'?
That said, the naivity in some of your posts sometimes makes me wonder what they teach you in the Reserves!
If you really want to know about QRA then why not invite aircrew from Leuchars or Coningsby to brief at one of your TA nights? You might find it interesting as a part time soldier and also an aviator?
The B Word
That said, the naivity in some of your posts sometimes makes me wonder what they teach you in the Reserves!
If you really want to know about QRA then why not invite aircrew from Leuchars or Coningsby to brief at one of your TA nights? You might find it interesting as a part time soldier and also an aviator?
The B Word
I do wonder what sort of memory Dannatt has. In 2006, the Army were screaming for fast-air to support their Op to the W of Kandahar (name of Op escapes me at the moment!). I worked in the CAOC at the time, and a sizeable chunk of their air requests went unsupported. Granted, when the boys got into trouble, they got the support, but if no shots were fired, plenty went unsupported. I appreciate the campaign has changed focus - McChrystal plan puts a different priority. Now, take a leap forward in time - same problem, different country (plenty to choose from on the E coast of Africa, bit further south in the Gulf, maybe even a little further S than Afghanistan), early days and a more offensive campaign to make ground. Sure Dannatt would want fast-air for his boys then.....?! And while we're at it, Army of 130k (or so), and they struggle to make a 6000 strong det every 6 months. Harmony is hit for plenty of people to make the numbers. So what's Dannatt's plan? Change Harmony? That'll p*55 people off even more. He needs to look at his own mob first before he starts criticising the others.
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Facts
I suggest 30mrad, you check your figures before throwing them around, plus it doesn't necessarily help the thread to descend into those arguments, yes we need Air, no doubt, but, speaking as an AH driver, watching the RAF Top Level Commanders et al throw their weight behind two Aircraft types and F*** the rest hasn't helped the cause. Hopefully SDR will help provide "direction", lord knows it's needed and from there, maybe some harsh decisions will be coming our (purple) way. Yeah Dannat is pro Green, but lets be honest, nobody does PR and publicity like the Crabs, fair play to you.
Not a lot of use to the Airline, but a lot of use to Ottowa or Toronto or wherever a rogue jet might be 'kamikazied'. They would at first fire warning shots and then they would bring it down before it was flown into someone important. Being in the TA, I am sure you are au-fait with Card Alpha and 'risk to life'?
In any case, the times when we are most vulnerable to hijack are when we are on approach to a satellite airport to a major city - have you ever flown 07 ILS to Le Bourget? Or 09 into London City? The view (of potential targets) is astonishing.
If we were hijacked on approach to one of the above airports, your hugely expensive QRA pilots would not even have turned off the DVD player before the hijackers hit the target.
What do they teach you in the RAF? Except to regurgitate self-serving staff college papers?
And instead of just diminishing reserves like me - you should do a study of how often in previous UK conflicts the unorthodox viewpoints and expertise of civilian reserves offered an advantage over our rigidly trained adversaries...
Dogstar,
I am extremely au fait with Afghanistan, but thanks for clearing up something else I already knew.
I appear to have sparked an idea in your minds that Afghanistan is easy.
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Deliverance,
Get over yourself, the other 90% of the Army have either just got back, having a short rest or preparing to go unless they are on an exchange with the RAF where they will be drinking tea, poncing about and trying to justify the unjustifiable. If that isn’t engaging enough they will be using every working second (all 27 of them in an (FJ) RAF day) to glorify the FJ tarts!!
You are the retard for not having the personality to look at other forces (including the proper RAF) and find out that you are not pulling your weight! Go join SH and see if they like the FJ money pit while in their sh1ty little bunks???
Oh and B, that sound about 1/3 of the SH hours and we don't have 200 Chinnies, Merlin or Puma - not really seeing your point; oh and we don’t sit in nice crew rooms waiting for the balloon to go up either? Now can you see why RW gets fed up with the winging FJ fleet?
Trim, you might be the FJ exception to the rule me thinks!!!
Get over yourself, the other 90% of the Army have either just got back, having a short rest or preparing to go unless they are on an exchange with the RAF where they will be drinking tea, poncing about and trying to justify the unjustifiable. If that isn’t engaging enough they will be using every working second (all 27 of them in an (FJ) RAF day) to glorify the FJ tarts!!
You are the retard for not having the personality to look at other forces (including the proper RAF) and find out that you are not pulling your weight! Go join SH and see if they like the FJ money pit while in their sh1ty little bunks???
Oh and B, that sound about 1/3 of the SH hours and we don't have 200 Chinnies, Merlin or Puma - not really seeing your point; oh and we don’t sit in nice crew rooms waiting for the balloon to go up either? Now can you see why RW gets fed up with the winging FJ fleet?
Trim, you might be the FJ exception to the rule me thinks!!!
Del Boy, B-Word,
And as Gnd says above, if the Army are even resorting to calling up uneducated mongs like me, don't you think the Army might be a bit overstretched?
No - I only got into aviation after I had passed the RAF age limit. Though I don't see what the fuss is about - they are just small, light, agile, VFR aircraft. They are remarkably easy to fly with loads of power reserves, hugely responsive controls, and drag to give speed stability when you need it..
And as Gnd says above, if the Army are even resorting to calling up uneducated mongs like me, don't you think the Army might be a bit overstretched?
Trim Stab, I get it, you are a failed wannabe fighter pilot
Last edited by Trim Stab; 16th May 2010 at 18:55.
Trim Stab - you are so appaulingly informed I'm starting to think that your stance is a bit of "Waaaaa!".
Flying alongside allows you to see the inside of the jet (partially) and also to eyeball the crew to see if they are OK. It also serves to tell any possible hijackers that "the game is up". It takes less than 30 secs to reposition for a good shot position, so why hang back?
I have flown approaches at big airports like Stanstead, Düsseldorf, Schiphol and Atlanta (HJ Intl) and yes you are right about picking your time. However, they are going to need to overpower the crew and then take control of the aircraft in the final 5 minutes of the flight - that's a big call on getting the timing spot on.
For example Flight 11 on Sep 11 lost contact with the ATCRU at 0815 and it crashed into the towers at 0846. Even if watching a DVD I would fancy my chances of getting an intercept from Coningsby. Flight 175 veered off planned course at 0842 and crashed at 0903 - 21 minutes is a bit racey but it was 48 minutes after the loss of comms from Flight 11 and aircraft would have already been up for the previous event. Flight 77 lost comms at 0846 and crashed at 0934 - plenty of time! Flight 93 was taken at 0927 and was lost at 1006.
All of these could be intercepted nowadays as our QRA is at better readiness and prepared for this type of event.
Mate, I've never been to Staff College although I have over 14years of Air Defence flying experience behind me. So, please take it from me that there is a job to be done with this and it isn't exactly popular with the crews that one day they might have to make a pretty big decision which will change their lives for good (in a bad way!). Not to mention the large amount of civilian casualties.
Honestly, get yourself to Coningsby or Leuchars and learn; then you might have more credibility to your viewpoint (if indeed it remains the same?).
The B Word
As you eloquently point out, QR is of no use whatsoever to airlines (or bizjets, which I fly). We have very adequate navigation and comms systems, with multiple redundancy, and better all weather systems than you. Showing your presence by flying alongside just serves to alarm passengers, not to mention the crew, since we are all aware that we risk being shot down. If you are going to shoot us down, better to hang back out of sight until you really do need to show a presence (definitely not the case in today's example). Showing your presence in an intercept is a cold war tactic that is irrelevant today.
In any case, the times when we are most vulnerable to hijack are when we are on approach to a satellite airport to a major city - have you ever flown 07 ILS to Le Bourget? Or 09 into London City? The view (of potential targets) is astonishing.
If we were hijacked on approach to one of the above airports, your hugely expensive QRA pilots would not even have turned off the DVD player before the hijackers hit the target.
If we were hijacked on approach to one of the above airports, your hugely expensive QRA pilots would not even have turned off the DVD player before the hijackers hit the target.
For example Flight 11 on Sep 11 lost contact with the ATCRU at 0815 and it crashed into the towers at 0846. Even if watching a DVD I would fancy my chances of getting an intercept from Coningsby. Flight 175 veered off planned course at 0842 and crashed at 0903 - 21 minutes is a bit racey but it was 48 minutes after the loss of comms from Flight 11 and aircraft would have already been up for the previous event. Flight 77 lost comms at 0846 and crashed at 0934 - plenty of time! Flight 93 was taken at 0927 and was lost at 1006.
All of these could be intercepted nowadays as our QRA is at better readiness and prepared for this type of event.
What do they teach you in the RAF? Except to regurgitate self-serving staff college papers?
And instead of just diminishing reserves like me - you should do a study of how often in previous UK conflicts the unorthodox viewpoints and expertise of civilian reserves offered an advantage over our rigidly trained adversaries...
And instead of just diminishing reserves like me - you should do a study of how often in previous UK conflicts the unorthodox viewpoints and expertise of civilian reserves offered an advantage over our rigidly trained adversaries...
Honestly, get yourself to Coningsby or Leuchars and learn; then you might have more credibility to your viewpoint (if indeed it remains the same?).
The B Word
Gnd - you're a very funny man - I kill you last!
Trim Stab - you should listen to B Word as he knows what he is talking about.
By the way, I thought those doors fitted to flight-decks are now designed to hold up for 30 minutes+? So wouldn't there be a lot of warning to the crew that something was going to happen? I believe they're also bullet resistant as well?
Dunno, not an airline expert...Don't think bizjets are included as you only need the reinforced door for 60+ pax (again I standby to be corrected).
LJ
Trim Stab - you should listen to B Word as he knows what he is talking about.
By the way, I thought those doors fitted to flight-decks are now designed to hold up for 30 minutes+? So wouldn't there be a lot of warning to the crew that something was going to happen? I believe they're also bullet resistant as well?
Dunno, not an airline expert...Don't think bizjets are included as you only need the reinforced door for 60+ pax (again I standby to be corrected).
LJ