Conservative `Armed Forces Manifesto`
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Conservative `Armed Forces Manifesto`
People,
This is not necessarilly a direct plug for the Tories, but by publishing a Manifesto directly for the Armed Forces, it does show that they are at least thinking of the Military, which appears a lot more than the other two main parties are doing.
Unfortunately, so often in the past & present, the Armed Forces are used a political football rather, kept in the background & only brought out when the Sh*t really hits the fan. Now it appears at very long last, one of the Political Parties has had the common sense, to recognise the great debt that all of us owe our Servicemen & Women.
I just wonder the state of the UK Military in another five years, should the present shower be returned, or if they enter into a grubby little back room agreement with the LDs & manage to hang on that way.
This is not necessarilly a direct plug for the Tories, but by publishing a Manifesto directly for the Armed Forces, it does show that they are at least thinking of the Military, which appears a lot more than the other two main parties are doing.
Unfortunately, so often in the past & present, the Armed Forces are used a political football rather, kept in the background & only brought out when the Sh*t really hits the fan. Now it appears at very long last, one of the Political Parties has had the common sense, to recognise the great debt that all of us owe our Servicemen & Women.
I just wonder the state of the UK Military in another five years, should the present shower be returned, or if they enter into a grubby little back room agreement with the LDs & manage to hang on that way.
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I'm sure they'll never get into power, but the UKIP Defence Policy is worth a read...
40% extra spending on defense, increase all 3 services numbers by around 20%, increase from 17 frigates/destroyers to 30 etc etc etc... Its a great document for those in the forces!
40% extra spending on defense, increase all 3 services numbers by around 20%, increase from 17 frigates/destroyers to 30 etc etc etc... Its a great document for those in the forces!
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The Tory manifesto site here, Defence manifesto pdf on that page.
The Conservative Party | Policy | The Conservative Manifesto 2010
If these proposals were acted upon, it would make a welcome change for the Armed Forces community (inc families and vets) to have the respect of Government.
It doesn't alter the fact that the forthcoming SDR will mean BIG cuts all round. Whatever nice words Dave says about us, it's going to be some time before morale is back where it should be. IMHO of course.
As an aside, can anyone here or in Head Office tell us about the process of the Review? I've got as far as Green paper informs debate .......... then what?
Who has an input into SDR (MoD, FO, Treasury - I'm guessing) and who makes the final decisions? Finally, what's the timescale from initiation to publication to implementation.
Genuine query which affects us all.
The Conservative Party | Policy | The Conservative Manifesto 2010
If these proposals were acted upon, it would make a welcome change for the Armed Forces community (inc families and vets) to have the respect of Government.
It doesn't alter the fact that the forthcoming SDR will mean BIG cuts all round. Whatever nice words Dave says about us, it's going to be some time before morale is back where it should be. IMHO of course.
As an aside, can anyone here or in Head Office tell us about the process of the Review? I've got as far as Green paper informs debate .......... then what?
Who has an input into SDR (MoD, FO, Treasury - I'm guessing) and who makes the final decisions? Finally, what's the timescale from initiation to publication to implementation.
Genuine query which affects us all.
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From the Armed forces manifesto.
That worries me. There are a lot of good Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen in the MOD and to cut them by 25% is IMHO a step too far. That will mean a lot of redundancies....hope the package is generous
We will review the structure of the Ministry of Defence to reduce running costs by 25 per cent.
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Well a start would be to reduce the civil servants by 25%, you know the ones getting bonuses for buying the cheapest ammo, limiting stores in supply chain, not providing enough body armour or sending wholely inadequate vehicles into combat.
Now that would be a good start, but maybe its just me.
Now that would be a good start, but maybe its just me.
"Now that would be a good start, but maybe its just me."
I'll bite - it is just you - I wish Civil Servants had half the power you ascribe to them. You'll find the decisions in question were forced on us by Ministers, or shock, horror, senior military officers.
Strangely, civil servants don't like messing the forces around, we're actually on your side and we tend to get hacked off when blamed for things outside our control.
Off to grumble, write letter to times, and find out where I left my life :-)
I'll bite - it is just you - I wish Civil Servants had half the power you ascribe to them. You'll find the decisions in question were forced on us by Ministers, or shock, horror, senior military officers.
Strangely, civil servants don't like messing the forces around, we're actually on your side and we tend to get hacked off when blamed for things outside our control.
Off to grumble, write letter to times, and find out where I left my life :-)
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"Did somebody say redundancy?"
Dam fine rumour to start if you ask me. Retire everybody at age 50 and keep the faith with the youth who never knew a time when the UK Armed Forces were one to be truly proud of. If you can remember leave travel warrants and (good) medical & dental care for family and serviceman, your out!!!
GB was on Sky News this lunchtime inspiring nobody with tales of 'leaked Tory documents' whilst looking in need of a haircut and a wash. He looked like a distraught individual to the point that if he continues like that, it would not surprise me if a new labour leader were placed on the pedestal toute suite.
Dam fine rumour to start if you ask me. Retire everybody at age 50 and keep the faith with the youth who never knew a time when the UK Armed Forces were one to be truly proud of. If you can remember leave travel warrants and (good) medical & dental care for family and serviceman, your out!!!
GB was on Sky News this lunchtime inspiring nobody with tales of 'leaked Tory documents' whilst looking in need of a haircut and a wash. He looked like a distraught individual to the point that if he continues like that, it would not surprise me if a new labour leader were placed on the pedestal toute suite.
It wont matter who gets in. The uk military has a projected deficeit of 36 billion pound (as briefed by harry staish just the other week).
There again will be the need for sweeping changes and much much more belt tightening. Expect to see major bases, squadrons and regiments close and manpower cut (yet again). 20 years of back to back conflicts has pushed all 3 forces to the brink and taken its toll, something will have to give.
Afghanistan has to be finished and finished sooner, rather than later. This would alleviate the problem, but we are commited to Op Herrick for the long term, there is no let up in sight for the immediate future. So long as the MOD is haemorrhaging money towards this, then it is a bleak outlook for the future.
Anybody who has done time in the forces will know the amount of money that is wasted. DII being a classic example. Any school kid now could probably plan and install this sort of network. Granted, it is massive, but it is just a network. How theses cowboys are still working it out after 10 years is beyond the realm of thinking.
I would love to see the future as being rosy, but I just cant see it.
There again will be the need for sweeping changes and much much more belt tightening. Expect to see major bases, squadrons and regiments close and manpower cut (yet again). 20 years of back to back conflicts has pushed all 3 forces to the brink and taken its toll, something will have to give.
Afghanistan has to be finished and finished sooner, rather than later. This would alleviate the problem, but we are commited to Op Herrick for the long term, there is no let up in sight for the immediate future. So long as the MOD is haemorrhaging money towards this, then it is a bleak outlook for the future.
Anybody who has done time in the forces will know the amount of money that is wasted. DII being a classic example. Any school kid now could probably plan and install this sort of network. Granted, it is massive, but it is just a network. How theses cowboys are still working it out after 10 years is beyond the realm of thinking.
I would love to see the future as being rosy, but I just cant see it.
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Well a start would be to reduce the civil servants by 25%,
"Damned fine idea but you know that the strawberries will be safe and the 25% cut will come from servicemen and women"
Sorry Vec, totally wrong - MOD CS has already been told to prepare for large scale job cuts (even more than the 40,000 we've had in the last 10 years) and grapevine indiciates we are to expect to lose at least 10- 15% BEFORE SDR (i.e. SDR is likely to bring another raft of cuts in).
As for Forces manpower - having heard a senior RAF Officer note that a lot of our financial issues could be solved by losing around 20,000 uniformed posts, you do wonder whether there is some sense in that if commitments / FE@R are cut too...
Sorry Vec, totally wrong - MOD CS has already been told to prepare for large scale job cuts (even more than the 40,000 we've had in the last 10 years) and grapevine indiciates we are to expect to lose at least 10- 15% BEFORE SDR (i.e. SDR is likely to bring another raft of cuts in).
As for Forces manpower - having heard a senior RAF Officer note that a lot of our financial issues could be solved by losing around 20,000 uniformed posts, you do wonder whether there is some sense in that if commitments / FE@R are cut too...
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Question I asked a few posts ago:
Jim Lad as you're here and I presume you work in town, can you answer any of the above?
I realise the main driver for SDR is financial, regardless of the spin which says we haven't had one for a few years; with that in mind, is it imperative to cut costs asap (ie this FY) or are we simply looking long term here?
Yours aye
Smiter
PS I fully respect the work that the majority of CS do for the military and I hope that most on here share the same opinion, although I'm prepared to be proved wrong. As I see it we're all in this together.
As an aside, can anyone here or in Head Office tell us about the process of the Review? I've got as far as Green paper informs debate .......... then what?
Who has an input into SDR (MoD, FO, Treasury - I'm guessing) and who makes the final decisions? Finally, what's the timescale from initiation to publication to implementation.
Who has an input into SDR (MoD, FO, Treasury - I'm guessing) and who makes the final decisions? Finally, what's the timescale from initiation to publication to implementation.
I realise the main driver for SDR is financial, regardless of the spin which says we haven't had one for a few years; with that in mind, is it imperative to cut costs asap (ie this FY) or are we simply looking long term here?
Yours aye
Smiter
PS I fully respect the work that the majority of CS do for the military and I hope that most on here share the same opinion, although I'm prepared to be proved wrong. As I see it we're all in this together.
Last edited by TheSmiter; 25th Apr 2010 at 16:58. Reason: gramma
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>> losing around 20,000 uniformed posts
I believe that already, UK alert state Red is unsustainable beyond a domestic site lockdown, due to a lack of people.
Combined Messing/Catering leading to further degradation of military tradition v PAYD. Can we afford 'tradition' anymore?
With any luck it will be the surplus of senior officers that take the biggest hit, after all each starred officer must be the equal of many junior rank airmen/soldiers/sailors. (& PTIs of course!!!!)
Smiter
That is a really interesting question, to which the answer is "I don't know".
What the SDR is will depend on who wins and how brave they feel in tackling national finances. My own (vaguely informed) view is that the new Minister will be briefed on the current spending round and control totals to meet PR11 challenges - in other words, efforts to put the Dept back in the black again. Any SDR assumptions will be driven in part using the outcome of PR11 for force levels and procurement plans etc.
The chances of a purely policy driven review are nil - all parties will need to trim costs, and its a case of whether we have an SDR, then a Planning Round to balance books and undercut the assumptions, or a savage Planning Round, then an SDR to make a policy driven defence review based on whats left of HM Forces.
That is a really interesting question, to which the answer is "I don't know".
What the SDR is will depend on who wins and how brave they feel in tackling national finances. My own (vaguely informed) view is that the new Minister will be briefed on the current spending round and control totals to meet PR11 challenges - in other words, efforts to put the Dept back in the black again. Any SDR assumptions will be driven in part using the outcome of PR11 for force levels and procurement plans etc.
The chances of a purely policy driven review are nil - all parties will need to trim costs, and its a case of whether we have an SDR, then a Planning Round to balance books and undercut the assumptions, or a savage Planning Round, then an SDR to make a policy driven defence review based on whats left of HM Forces.
The interesting bit about not being policy-led, is that we're pretty much at the point where its either stick with the SDR force structure (not actually bad, just never funded) and certainly revisit the planning assumptions re scale, duration and concurrency, or collapse on home base and become part of some mini-euro force based on what we already have capitalised (eg amphibious force, maybe CVF, Tiffie, C17, ASTOR) and play "niche". The latter is bad news (long term) if you're a pongo or a Foo and pretty much avoids the issue of deep strike unless JCA makes it through the planning rounds.
Still can't quite understand how butchering the E&SP line is going to make much of a difference (~£15Bn pa out of £700bn total government spending), particularly if it's a large proportion of capital spend which actually creates jobs, but no real expectation this will change anything. The real spend that needs to be cut is the resource element of the minor government departments, but again, p1ssing in the wind I suspect.......
Still can't quite understand how butchering the E&SP line is going to make much of a difference (~£15Bn pa out of £700bn total government spending), particularly if it's a large proportion of capital spend which actually creates jobs, but no real expectation this will change anything. The real spend that needs to be cut is the resource element of the minor government departments, but again, p1ssing in the wind I suspect.......
Afghanistan has to be finished and finished sooner, rather than later.
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It's just part of the cycle where the government either sells what belongs to the country (privatisation) or just stops funding it all together.
They have nothing left to sell, so what little else they 'run' will fall in to a state of disrepair.
There is a silver lining however........eventually they'll have no responsibility at all, as they will have either sold or ruined what little they control and will therefore be no need for the leeches.
Cons are no better than any other party, they're just more up front with how they go about screwing people over.
They have nothing left to sell, so what little else they 'run' will fall in to a state of disrepair.
There is a silver lining however........eventually they'll have no responsibility at all, as they will have either sold or ruined what little they control and will therefore be no need for the leeches.
Cons are no better than any other party, they're just more up front with how they go about screwing people over.
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Actually, the whole point of the military is to actually carry out operations, not just endlessly rehearse for them. Herrick is what we are here for - too many people in the military seem to think they should just have a good time flying high performance aircraft for fun!
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Jim Lad thanks for your input - pretty much confirms my own world view!
We're totally screwed whoever takes power, and you know what, I 'm beyond caring.
From Hansard 20 Oct 1998
Deja Vu
Depressing isn't it?
We're totally screwed whoever takes power, and you know what, I 'm beyond caring.
From Hansard 20 Oct 1998
Those voting Aye failed to change the motion before the House from:This House approves the conclusions of the Government's Strategic Defence Review (Cm 3999) to:This House welcomes those aspects of the Strategic Defence Review which build on Conservative policy and which take forward jointery and rapid reaction capability; but deplores the proposed cuts in money, men, ships and planes; notes that, far from being foreign policy led, there are no clear foreign policy objectives, that defence spending between 1996-97 and 2001-2 will fall by £2,166 million in real terms with inevitable consequences for capability, that the Territorial Army is to be cut by almost one third, that the RAF is to have fewer planes and the Royal Navy fewer submarines and surface ships; seriously doubts that the planned replacements for aircraft carriers will ever be built by a Labour Government; believes that the problems of over-stretch and morale have not been adequately addressed; and deplores the fact that the armed forces will be asked to do more in a dangerous world with fewer men and less equipment.
The original motion then passed automatically.
The original motion then passed automatically.
Depressing isn't it?
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IMHO we DO NOT need Iraq nor Afghanistan and the longer we keep pretending to be a super power, the more indebted the country will become.
We do however need to convince Argentinia* that the Falklands are best left alone and Russia that sending Blackjacks to Stornoway could end up with them being on a one-way mission. Gordon today voiced rhetoric about Somalia and Yemen being on his shopping list: With What??
Whether you agree or disagree is largely imaterial as the inevitable UK Defence Force Plc will only be fit for homeland defence and our Commonwealth and NATO commitments will be a distant memory.
*Of course the Argentinian conscripts will be well aware of the battle experienced UK Armed Forces. That will do much for their morale....Not!
We do however need to convince Argentinia* that the Falklands are best left alone and Russia that sending Blackjacks to Stornoway could end up with them being on a one-way mission. Gordon today voiced rhetoric about Somalia and Yemen being on his shopping list: With What??
Whether you agree or disagree is largely imaterial as the inevitable UK Defence Force Plc will only be fit for homeland defence and our Commonwealth and NATO commitments will be a distant memory.
*Of course the Argentinian conscripts will be well aware of the battle experienced UK Armed Forces. That will do much for their morale....Not!
too many people in the military seem to think they should just have a good time flying high performance aircraft for fun!