Military flying technique v Civilian PPL
and plus military crosswind technique 
is " wing down top rudder" instead of ppl "crab"
is " wing down top rudder" instead of ppl "crab"
Not sure how the multi-engine crowd are taught?
Shouldn't you really be comparing military v CPL/ATPL?
PPL weekend warriors fly for different reasons and can't be expected to (all though some do) meet the high standards of professional aircrew.
PPL weekend warriors fly for different reasons and can't be expected to (all though some do) meet the high standards of professional aircrew.
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(Ref earlier post #5) Buffet boundary at high altitude - Lockheed U-2
Have a look at this extract from a mid-1960s Lockheed U-2 flight manual for the C, F, G, H series with the J-75 engine ...
From this graph, as the U-2 climbs through 70,000' altitude in a mission cruise climb – the aircraft stall speed is 94 knots IAS, and the mach buffet boundary is 100 kts IAS.
The safe flight margin is therefore 6 knots between the onset of stalling buffet or encountering high speed mach buffet. Climb speed at 70,000' is 97 knots, just 3 knots either side of buffet. The TAS is however around 400 knots.
Aircraft external mission configuration - aerials, scoops, camera windows, pods - will generally affect these numbers adversely.
From this graph, as the U-2 climbs through 70,000' altitude in a mission cruise climb – the aircraft stall speed is 94 knots IAS, and the mach buffet boundary is 100 kts IAS.
The safe flight margin is therefore 6 knots between the onset of stalling buffet or encountering high speed mach buffet. Climb speed at 70,000' is 97 knots, just 3 knots either side of buffet. The TAS is however around 400 knots.
Aircraft external mission configuration - aerials, scoops, camera windows, pods - will generally affect these numbers adversely.
Last edited by curvedsky; 22nd Mar 2010 at 12:49. Reason: added(Post #5) reference
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i'm telling you, for the U.S. Navy is wing down top rudder, no need for last second corrections more stable during flare and no swerving moment upon touchdown...who knows, maybe on a 10000 foot long Rwy the crab may work, but when you need to land "hard" and safe wing down top rudder saves your ass
no need for last second corrections more stable during flare and no swerving moment upon touchdown...who knows, maybe on a 10000 foot long Rwy the crab may work
It is interesting to read though that the RAF are now teaching the crab method at EFT.
tempesta:
I got a wake up call a few years back flying with a Marine Col who was a Hornet driver. We were doing proficiency flying in a T-34C, which isn't carrier capable/strong. We teach "wing down, top rudder" for crosswing landings in that aircraft.
Apparently, F-18 habit is to crab, for reasons I don't know but can guess at. Given that the standard FCLP and CV landing are intended to be both main mounts at once, for obvious reasons, perhaps that's the default. Also, the non-flare nature of a standard fixed AoA approach to firm landing.
Anyhoo, as he sets up for the landing, about a ten knot crosswind, I'm sittin' back there in the back seat about to crap me pants, as we are about to land in a substantial crab. Called for waveoff, and of course he waved off, a few feet above touchdown. Asked me if he'd missed seeing something on the runway. I waited until downwind to explain to him what had me worried, to which he responded "What, you don't land in a crab?"
Knowing he needed wing down, top rudder, he flew the next approach beautifully and greased it on.
I got a wake up call a few years back flying with a Marine Col who was a Hornet driver. We were doing proficiency flying in a T-34C, which isn't carrier capable/strong. We teach "wing down, top rudder" for crosswing landings in that aircraft.
Apparently, F-18 habit is to crab, for reasons I don't know but can guess at. Given that the standard FCLP and CV landing are intended to be both main mounts at once, for obvious reasons, perhaps that's the default. Also, the non-flare nature of a standard fixed AoA approach to firm landing.
Anyhoo, as he sets up for the landing, about a ten knot crosswind, I'm sittin' back there in the back seat about to crap me pants, as we are about to land in a substantial crab. Called for waveoff, and of course he waved off, a few feet above touchdown. Asked me if he'd missed seeing something on the runway. I waited until downwind to explain to him what had me worried, to which he responded "What, you don't land in a crab?"
Knowing he needed wing down, top rudder, he flew the next approach beautifully and greased it on.
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Having taught EFT since 1981 it has always been 'crab' technique in a crosswind, though point and shoot came in well after my CFS course. In the wonderful Vulcan I seem to remember that 4 degrees of bank at touchdown could scrape a wingtip, so that was crab method too!
Crashing onto a deck moving in random directions is a skill I thankfully never needed, despite teaching RN students on and off for a good 10 years, so I accept the USN may have different priorities.
R
Crashing onto a deck moving in random directions is a skill I thankfully never needed, despite teaching RN students on and off for a good 10 years, so I accept the USN may have different priorities.
R
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Just to put the record straight...
There is a big cliff to the east of Salalah, Oman, that you have to ridge roll to 180 degrees of bank as you go over it south bound. They have a UN mandate in place to make sure that you do, and I think I'm right in saying that local bye laws insist you do it in fourship wall and achieve 30 plus degrees nose down before rolling back up the right way.
Might not be a UN thing, possibly in the Thumrait FOB, or Omani En Route Sup...but I'm sure I've read it somewhere - wouldn't have authorised it otherwise!!
There is a big cliff to the east of Salalah, Oman, that you have to ridge roll to 180 degrees of bank as you go over it south bound. They have a UN mandate in place to make sure that you do, and I think I'm right in saying that local bye laws insist you do it in fourship wall and achieve 30 plus degrees nose down before rolling back up the right way.
Might not be a UN thing, possibly in the Thumrait FOB, or Omani En Route Sup...but I'm sure I've read it somewhere - wouldn't have authorised it otherwise!!
