Manning - Are we shooting ourselves in the foot?
I did think hard before putting fingers to keyboard, but in a moment of boredom between sandpit planning meetings I figured it was more interesting than reading the 3 week old copy of the Gruaniad that's cluttering up the coffee table.
I can see both sides of the argument here, and Vernon does have a very valid point that if you are good at sports, then you are more likely to find the RAF to be accommodating in letting you have time to do them. This happened several times during my first tour when my unit at the time couldn't release an individual for RAF Football until a 2* got involved.
Likewise, I would hate to see things like the Ski Champs. BWT, parachuting etc etc stopped in a fit of puritanical pique. It has long been my contention that when compared to many of our European colleagues, the British military seems to take a peverse pleasure in making life as difficult and uncomfortable for its people as possible. It is perfectly possible to be professional and dedicated without being beaten with the stick every day of the week. To that end, AT is a most welcome 'bit of carrot' to go with the stick.
However, it has become blatantly apparent in recent years that there is a 2-tier RAF. On the one hand, there are the operational elements - the fg sqns, the FP Wgs, the IntOs and the various Tac units. All to often, individuals posted into these units will find themselves on the ops treadmill, and when not in theatre, are being thrashed at home actively supporting or preparing for ops. On the other hand, you have those individuals not at the sharp end who deploy so infrequently their passports expire inbetween Dets. And there are individuals in some trades who need almost all their fingers to count the frequency of their dets. whilst it's not necessarily their fault for being in a trade or specialisation currently not required in theatre, it is a bit galling for those constantly being thrashed to see the quarterly AT rag, various sports publications and the repeated write ups in the Station rags about individuals who have been allowed 3 months off to single handedly row the Pacific or climb Everest backwards without the aid of Sherpa or oxygen.
In short, a bit more balance please - more carrot, less stick. And for those fortunate enough to get their AT, sports, expeds etc in on a regular basis, just remember that there is a sizeable minority of the Air Force whose only expeds are regular trips to hot sandy places.
I can see both sides of the argument here, and Vernon does have a very valid point that if you are good at sports, then you are more likely to find the RAF to be accommodating in letting you have time to do them. This happened several times during my first tour when my unit at the time couldn't release an individual for RAF Football until a 2* got involved.
Likewise, I would hate to see things like the Ski Champs. BWT, parachuting etc etc stopped in a fit of puritanical pique. It has long been my contention that when compared to many of our European colleagues, the British military seems to take a peverse pleasure in making life as difficult and uncomfortable for its people as possible. It is perfectly possible to be professional and dedicated without being beaten with the stick every day of the week. To that end, AT is a most welcome 'bit of carrot' to go with the stick.
However, it has become blatantly apparent in recent years that there is a 2-tier RAF. On the one hand, there are the operational elements - the fg sqns, the FP Wgs, the IntOs and the various Tac units. All to often, individuals posted into these units will find themselves on the ops treadmill, and when not in theatre, are being thrashed at home actively supporting or preparing for ops. On the other hand, you have those individuals not at the sharp end who deploy so infrequently their passports expire inbetween Dets. And there are individuals in some trades who need almost all their fingers to count the frequency of their dets. whilst it's not necessarily their fault for being in a trade or specialisation currently not required in theatre, it is a bit galling for those constantly being thrashed to see the quarterly AT rag, various sports publications and the repeated write ups in the Station rags about individuals who have been allowed 3 months off to single handedly row the Pacific or climb Everest backwards without the aid of Sherpa or oxygen.
In short, a bit more balance please - more carrot, less stick. And for those fortunate enough to get their AT, sports, expeds etc in on a regular basis, just remember that there is a sizeable minority of the Air Force whose only expeds are regular trips to hot sandy places.
There are also the specialisations that don't go away as often as others and yet still have no time for AT, university short courses etc etc, because they're stretched to the limit supporting flying ops. Leave can be achieved, which I realise is better than some, but nothing else. And you end up working so hard that when you eventually get leave you're ill the whole time as your body realises that you've stopped for a minute!
TBH, I think that our manning levels have got to the stage where we can't afford to have people being released from their primary duties for sport. AT is a bl00dy good idea and should be supported wherever possible, but the impact of having people away from their primary duty competing is unsustainable. If you're limiting your operational capability because you haven't got enough people, then we must be doing something wrong!
TBH, I think that our manning levels have got to the stage where we can't afford to have people being released from their primary duties for sport. AT is a bl00dy good idea and should be supported wherever possible, but the impact of having people away from their primary duty competing is unsustainable. If you're limiting your operational capability because you haven't got enough people, then we must be doing something wrong!
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It's not as clear cut as the those that are busy on ops can't do At while those that aren't can afford the time to swan off.
A friend of mine has done quite a few expeds (a fair few with me). For the last one he organised the Quadrennial British Services expedition to the Himalaya also leading the main team on the successful ascent of the 5th Highest mountain in the world. The expedition was long and demanding. Both the expedition and the pre-expedition training (mainly carried out at weekends) were physically and mentally tough on all participants. The publicity campaign that accompanied the trip showed British Servicemen in the best of lights - especially to lots of school classes who followed their progress.
Not bad for someone who currently has 5 campaign medals (that hide a number of repeat tours) and managed a fair degree of planning while leading his Squadron on ops. The leaders of 2 of the other parties both have 4 campaign medals.
This isn't an argument to say that everyone can get the time away for these opportunities; they can't. It is just saying that it is not quite the Ops vs REMFs argument that some like to portray.
A friend of mine has done quite a few expeds (a fair few with me). For the last one he organised the Quadrennial British Services expedition to the Himalaya also leading the main team on the successful ascent of the 5th Highest mountain in the world. The expedition was long and demanding. Both the expedition and the pre-expedition training (mainly carried out at weekends) were physically and mentally tough on all participants. The publicity campaign that accompanied the trip showed British Servicemen in the best of lights - especially to lots of school classes who followed their progress.
Not bad for someone who currently has 5 campaign medals (that hide a number of repeat tours) and managed a fair degree of planning while leading his Squadron on ops. The leaders of 2 of the other parties both have 4 campaign medals.
This isn't an argument to say that everyone can get the time away for these opportunities; they can't. It is just saying that it is not quite the Ops vs REMFs argument that some like to portray.
Always thought it was a bit of a kick in the balls to know that trainee aircrew were going overseas for their AT, whilst the most that the rest of us got was a week in north Wales. Don't get me wrong, Fairborne was a hoot and does exactly what you want it to do. Simply don't see why the trainee aircrew swan off to sunnier climbs to achieve the same result.
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To which we can add scuba diving in Gan a couple of years ago and an exped to Ascension, not FI you note. Or to Malta on a staff ride.
I have just worked out that I can do plenty of AT when I get back from theatre ..... I will have accumulated a total of 75 days leave.
Should be enough to allow me to undertake my planned exped which is to row down the Nile to its source, trek across coutnry to Tanzania where I will climb Kilimanjaro unaided before base jumping from the peak wearing one of those special suits you can get that allow you to glide in order to break some sort of world distance record.
That should make for interesting reading in the Autumn edition of my station propaganda!
Should be enough to allow me to undertake my planned exped which is to row down the Nile to its source, trek across coutnry to Tanzania where I will climb Kilimanjaro unaided before base jumping from the peak wearing one of those special suits you can get that allow you to glide in order to break some sort of world distance record.
That should make for interesting reading in the Autumn edition of my station propaganda!
Hmmmm.....
As a jockstrapophobe who hated sport with a vengeance after many years of 5 days a week compulsory rugby/hockey/cross-country/cricket at public school, I thought that the RAF attitude of the 1970s-1990s was fine. Basically, if you wanted to commit sport or adventurous training, you went ahead and did so. But you didn't expect everyone else to share your enthusiasm for whichever activity you wished to indulge in.
Those who were very talented at station level or above deserved every opportunity to participate - without let or hindrance. And good luck to them.
But the people I utterly despised were those who emerged from the woodwork to take advantage of some sponsored neo-freebie or other as their annual jolly, leaving others to cover for them. THAT was widdle-extraction of the highest order!
When money is down to the bingo-lights, it is quite reasonable to query why UAS cadets (as in University Air Squadon, nothing to do with drones) or other baby ossifers should go to South America to climb hills when the Black Mountains, Cheviots or Grampians are all available.
As for this 'Don't deploy = lesser being' bull$hit, RAF does NOT stand for Royal Afghan airForce. There will be those whose employment does not require them to live in sand and $hit, but they are of no less calibre than those others who do. They do other things of an equal, but perhaps less dangerous or physically demanding nature.
Still, whilst AT is still available, take whatever advantage you can!
As a jockstrapophobe who hated sport with a vengeance after many years of 5 days a week compulsory rugby/hockey/cross-country/cricket at public school, I thought that the RAF attitude of the 1970s-1990s was fine. Basically, if you wanted to commit sport or adventurous training, you went ahead and did so. But you didn't expect everyone else to share your enthusiasm for whichever activity you wished to indulge in.
Those who were very talented at station level or above deserved every opportunity to participate - without let or hindrance. And good luck to them.
But the people I utterly despised were those who emerged from the woodwork to take advantage of some sponsored neo-freebie or other as their annual jolly, leaving others to cover for them. THAT was widdle-extraction of the highest order!
When money is down to the bingo-lights, it is quite reasonable to query why UAS cadets (as in University Air Squadon, nothing to do with drones) or other baby ossifers should go to South America to climb hills when the Black Mountains, Cheviots or Grampians are all available.
As for this 'Don't deploy = lesser being' bull$hit, RAF does NOT stand for Royal Afghan airForce. There will be those whose employment does not require them to live in sand and $hit, but they are of no less calibre than those others who do. They do other things of an equal, but perhaps less dangerous or physically demanding nature.
Still, whilst AT is still available, take whatever advantage you can!
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I have just worked out that I can do plenty of AT when I get back from theatre ..... I will have accumulated a total of 75 days leave.
Should be enough to allow me to undertake my planned exped which is to row down the Nile to its source, trek across coutnry to Tanzania where I will climb Kilimanjaro unaided before base jumping from the peak wearing one of those special suits you can get that allow you to glide in order to break some sort of world distance record.
That should make for interesting reading in the Autumn edition of my station propaganda!
Should be enough to allow me to undertake my planned exped which is to row down the Nile to its source, trek across coutnry to Tanzania where I will climb Kilimanjaro unaided before base jumping from the peak wearing one of those special suits you can get that allow you to glide in order to break some sort of world distance record.
That should make for interesting reading in the Autumn edition of my station propaganda!
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But the people I utterly despised were those who emerged from the woodwork to take advantage of some sponsored neo-freebie or other as their annual jolly, leaving others to cover for them. THAT was widdle-extraction of the highest order!
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LMAO pull the other one it's got bells on. Unless you are already sport billy, and play something at station/command/force level with a senior officer who can pull strings then you have no chance.
Used to work with a couple of sporty types, useless at their job but good at running or whatever.
Typical scenario, already the maximum allowed on leave so they cannot have another weekend off to represent X,Y or Z. About an hour later the boss will receive a phonecall inviting him to release sport billy, under threat of something nasty. Or sport billy is invited by senior bod to go on AT and we get the same scenario as above.
If your face fits AT is available.
I don't think your comments are entirely fair. I regularly do AT and have found bosses to be supportive of requests to do it. However I don't kick the ar5e out of it. Most of the AT is done over 1 or 2 days usually including weekends. I do self funded courses to gain qualifications such as Trial Cycle leader so I can take others out. I don't clock watch when at work and stay until the jobs done. I also volunteer for the less popular stuff like Guard Cdr, parades and OOA. I am not alone in this, as many of the other personnel who do AT on a regular basis do the same. On a personal level I have found that many of those who enjoy AT are good team players, highly motvated and have good levels of fitness.
LMAO pull the other one it's got bells on. Unless you are already sport billy, and play something at station/command/force level with a senior officer who can pull strings then you have no chance.
Used to work with a couple of sporty types, useless at their job but good at running or whatever.
Typical scenario, already the maximum allowed on leave so they cannot have another weekend off to represent X,Y or Z. About an hour later the boss will receive a phonecall inviting him to release sport billy, under threat of something nasty. Or sport billy is invited by senior bod to go on AT and we get the same scenario as above.
If your face fits AT is available.
I don't think your comments are entirely fair. I regularly do AT and have found bosses to be supportive of requests to do it. However I don't kick the ar5e out of it. Most of the AT is done over 1 or 2 days usually including weekends. I do self funded courses to gain qualifications such as Trial Cycle leader so I can take others out. I don't clock watch when at work and stay until the jobs done. I also volunteer for the less popular stuff like Guard Cdr, parades and OOA. I am not alone in this, as many of the other personnel who do AT on a regular basis do the same. On a personal level I have found that many of those who enjoy AT are good team players, highly motvated and have good levels of fitness.
Last edited by Boris1275; 6th Mar 2010 at 19:43. Reason: To insert quote
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Our local magazine at ISK and ISL shows all from the aircrew perspective having staff trips to the places during the war , we are not stupid its a piss up. As groundcrew we are not allowed to show that , we all expected to crack on and get on with it . The RAF does blow goats with the rank structure and i hope soon we are taken over by the army or navy as at least there engineers dont bitch and moan like us so it must be better
There's at least one squadron at ISK/L which had a staff ride pretty much entirely organised for and by the groundcrew, with minimal aircrew input other than the approval of the sqn execs and a couple of token guys attending.
So I'm sure it can be done if you're not aircrew. Have you tried organising one?
So I'm sure it can be done if you're not aircrew. Have you tried organising one?
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Went on one v good staff ride just before I left, and wished I'd been on more. Yes, it involved about 9 or 10 of us getting out and having a beer in a foreign country, but it also gave us a very good appreciation of WW1, the sites, battles, people, pressures and pointlessness. Few books will achieve the same.
The beer was a nice bonus, but the stuff I otherwise learned was much more memorable, and done properly this should be the resounding feature of a staff ride. I used to think they we soirees too - but go on one and then see what you think. As for officers hijacking the trips, I'm pretty sure the make-up of the staff ride, which has to be approved by independent adminners somewhere, has to reflect a cross section of ranks before being authorised.
The beer was a nice bonus, but the stuff I otherwise learned was much more memorable, and done properly this should be the resounding feature of a staff ride. I used to think they we soirees too - but go on one and then see what you think. As for officers hijacking the trips, I'm pretty sure the make-up of the staff ride, which has to be approved by independent adminners somewhere, has to reflect a cross section of ranks before being authorised.
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Agree with Dallas. In 2008 I was fortunate enough to be able to complete 2 Staff Rides (SR) to Northern France visiting WW1 battlefields and memorials. A very humbling experience that leaves a long standing impression. Now I consider myself a bit of an anorak when it comes to Aviation History having been interested in the same since childhood; yet I was well and truly put back in my box regarding info that I had never heard of ever. On the 90th anniversary of the RAF I laid a service wreath on the St Omer RFC/RAF memorial as part of the SR events. AFAI know, the only RAF wreath laid there on that day.
These are the only ALT/SR I have completed beyond those done as part of flying training under the heading of leadership, and not only did I enjoy every minute, the cross socialising with station members whome I would otherwise never have cause to speak to allied to the new found knowledge regarding service history & culture proved to be worth every euro of the MoDs pocket.
I know from a mate that you can attend SR from other stations were vacancies exist and budgets permit. ....and regardless of Op time, a SR can be found if you look for it.
PS: Are Manning shooting themselves in the foot? They always have done and far too many work to an agenda of keeping their mates happy and lining their own nest for their own next posting. There is a lot to be said for having blunties as desk officers, emotionally detached from individual friendships. I have heard from my own DO recently, "By then it will be somebody elses problem", which epitomises a core problem at Manning. Being devils advocate, if I worked at Manning the place would drive me mad too!!
These are the only ALT/SR I have completed beyond those done as part of flying training under the heading of leadership, and not only did I enjoy every minute, the cross socialising with station members whome I would otherwise never have cause to speak to allied to the new found knowledge regarding service history & culture proved to be worth every euro of the MoDs pocket.
I know from a mate that you can attend SR from other stations were vacancies exist and budgets permit. ....and regardless of Op time, a SR can be found if you look for it.
PS: Are Manning shooting themselves in the foot? They always have done and far too many work to an agenda of keeping their mates happy and lining their own nest for their own next posting. There is a lot to be said for having blunties as desk officers, emotionally detached from individual friendships. I have heard from my own DO recently, "By then it will be somebody elses problem", which epitomises a core problem at Manning. Being devils advocate, if I worked at Manning the place would drive me mad too!!
Viz-Sorry but my fat blunt arse has organised plenty of national and international AT in past jobs-unfortunately, manning in last 2 jobs has precluded me going. I was simply making a comparison between AT given to those on training courses post IOT. As an example, ground guys get a week at Fairbourne, aircrew trainees get time scuba diving in Egypt. Same course learning outcomes, different location. Why? And don't use the "it's all our own effort" argument, because the DS set the parameters!
Two-tone, on this occasion, it was too good an opportunity to miss.
Two-tone, on this occasion, it was too good an opportunity to miss.
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The point was............
My original point is one of justification. There are many benefits to AT however I cannot for the life of me see how a 2 week swan to the alps for a bit of downhill skiing can be classed as valuable 'leadership and self development training' just because the individual competes in one downhill race. As far as I am aware AT is not a 2 week 'right' its available if the manning situation allows......often with shortages in branches and trades it is not. I have to say that whilst it (AT) is something we should not loose there are some more worthy. I have been to the champs many times and not once have I learnt anything about leadership or followership, I have got p*ssed, laid and had a cheap skiing holiday whilst improving my skiing; it is not comparable in any way shape or form to structured AT in the hills or on water where you integrate and work as a team to overcome physical adversity. If someone thinks organising it is a reasonable secondary duty worthy of a comment on an SJAR/OJAR they are deluded.......... much the same could be said about the number of AT trips to Ascension for fishing!!!
We will face cuts to manning and whatever they are will make the situation worse....can this outdated tradition continue? I think not.
We will face cuts to manning and whatever they are will make the situation worse....can this outdated tradition continue? I think not.
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Interesting that dark blue and green have not jumped in to this contest.
I seem to remember when dark blue used to bus shedloads of a ship's company from Hamburg to Berlin for a looksee. Those in days when, as visiting aircrew, you would have had difficulty getting MT to the nearest toilet.
And these ski-champs, Army stopped attending now?
Many many years ago I used to marvel at the expense of new carpets, curtains and paint schemes that diverted money from our war aims - the Cold War. I eventually swung around the the Marines' view, anyone can be uncomfortable in adversity but if you can make things better then do so.
How long will it last? As long as the grand fromage at the top see the greater benefit.
I seem to remember when dark blue used to bus shedloads of a ship's company from Hamburg to Berlin for a looksee. Those in days when, as visiting aircrew, you would have had difficulty getting MT to the nearest toilet.
And these ski-champs, Army stopped attending now?
Many many years ago I used to marvel at the expense of new carpets, curtains and paint schemes that diverted money from our war aims - the Cold War. I eventually swung around the the Marines' view, anyone can be uncomfortable in adversity but if you can make things better then do so.
How long will it last? As long as the grand fromage at the top see the greater benefit.
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Just so we can, perhaps, put this to bed.
The aims of the Ski Champs are:
So - sports - not AT. Same sort of aims as other sports, but in a non-UK location to ensure better conditions.
The aims of the Ski Champs are:
a. To encourage beginners to take up skiing and/or snowboarding by offering formal instruction.
b. To facilitate the transition from recreational skiing and snowboarding to racing by promoting tuition and appropriate training.
c. To encourage and raise the standard of competitive skiing and snowboarding in the RAF.
d. To provide a venue for the selection of the RAF Men’s and Women’s Ski and Snowboard Teams.
e. To develop officials and referees to national standards.
f. To improve military personal fitness through participation in active sports.
g. To provide an opportunity for junior officers, SNCOs and JNCOs acting as Officers i/c or Team Captains to demonstrate organisational and leadership skills.
AUTHORITY
Duty Status. Exercise ALPINE CHALLENGE is an official Inter Station/Unit event....
b. To facilitate the transition from recreational skiing and snowboarding to racing by promoting tuition and appropriate training.
c. To encourage and raise the standard of competitive skiing and snowboarding in the RAF.
d. To provide a venue for the selection of the RAF Men’s and Women’s Ski and Snowboard Teams.
e. To develop officials and referees to national standards.
f. To improve military personal fitness through participation in active sports.
g. To provide an opportunity for junior officers, SNCOs and JNCOs acting as Officers i/c or Team Captains to demonstrate organisational and leadership skills.
AUTHORITY
Duty Status. Exercise ALPINE CHALLENGE is an official Inter Station/Unit event....