Canberra Air Start

[jedinein]

Anyone familiar with the Canberra Bombers, all versions, and how they were started? I'm looking for technical specs (if available) for how a few Air Forces used air carts to get their Canberra engines going. I see some pictures online of compressed air hoses attached to the breech caps, but no details on what sort of air pressure or fittings were used.

Thanks much for any leads, pointers, or ideas.

[rusty_monkey]

Our last ones used Avpin instead of the 4inch shells. Great joy of pouring avpin into the tank by the engine in the desert. Also all the hassles of not being able to ship the damn stuff anywhere.

The trainer still had carts but the PR9s were all avpin (you got about 12 startsper tank full)
The specs can be found online
and this link may help:

Avpin - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums

[Lukeafb1]

Canberras - Engine Starting

The B15, B16, B2, B6 and T4 were all started by electrically fired starter cartridges (3 per engine). Not sure about other mks.

[27mm]

E15 - 3 breech starter; PR9 - Avpin (cf Hunter & Lightning)

[MrBernoulli]

Rhodesian Air Force used compressed air starting. Away from home at the moment so can't check for details, but will do so when I return later in the week, unless someone else provides details for you in the meantime!

[Jellybrain]

PR7 was 3 cartridges per breech starter, the TT18 was single shot cartridge like B2, T4, max three attempts.

[Fareastdriver]

Cartridge stars, and also Avpin, was an Air force thing. Most British aircraft exported to other countries had far more sensible ways of starting the engines incorporated in them.

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

...and the Triple Breech Starter cartridges (PR7, E15) were 10Mk3

the Single Breech Starter cartridges (B2,T4,TT18) were 9Mk2

How sad am I?

[jedinein]

Thanks much!

I'm dealing with a Canberra with a 3 cartridge system, but the cartridges are rather difficult to come by (and really annoy the local authorities). I would really appreciate any details on the conversions to the air cart or other methods to start.

Or if anyone has leads on where I could locate some cartridges, that would also be appreciated.

[Dengue_Dude]

he Single Breech Starter cartridges (B2,T4,TT18) were 9Mk2

My polished starter cartridge is in my dining room. I used to be the Canberra OCU ground instructor 87 - 90, and I remember each (of the single breech cartridges contained 720 gms of cordite).

We used to have a starter shaft from the engine that had an almost perfect spiral in it. The cartridge had been fired into an engine that had seized and all that energy had just twisted the shaft - a work of art.

I believe the triple-breech starters used the same cartridge but had the three attempts.

PR9 used AVPIN, but not sure about any others that had the system.

They were also highly successful in setting pianos on fire I seem to remember. . .

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Dengue_Dude

I believe the triple-breech starters used the same cartridge but had the three attempts

Actually, they were different. The most obvious being that the Triple Breech Starter cartridge had a disc in the end that depressed a plunger to direct the cordite from the correct breech.

Check the bottom of your cartridge to see what Mk it is (unless you polished the bottom as well.) I'm guessing 9Mk2.

If I've got the 10Mk3/9Mk2 cartridges the right way round, a used 10Mk3 will have this disc rattling around inside, but the 9Mk2 won't.

Back on 13 Sqn, I had the idea of sticking a Sqn zap on the cartridge and then tracing over the graphic with a vibrating etching tool. Mine are in the garage.

I'm interested to hear about other nations using an air start trolley. Presumably it would need a modified breech cap to take (quite a lot of) air pressure/flow. But then you have to remove the device from a running engine!

I had to remove a single breech cap from a running engine while detached at St Mawgan, in order to get the other one going. I wouldn't recommend it.

[retrosgone]

I went through the Canberra OCU at Marham in 1980, and we had a Zimbabwean (formerly Rhodesian Air Force) crew on my course.

Sanctions during the war caused them to make many improvisations to keep their aircraft operational. They could not obtain cartridges, so they used compressed air instead. From the way they described it, this was a lash-up involving a large "bottle" attached somehow to the starter so that the air could spin up the starter turbine in the same way as the cartridge gasses would during a "normal" start. Of course, the connection had to be removed as soon as the engine was running.

Those young guys (Messrs Ludgater and Mew as I recall) had some pretty amazing tales to tell. Never heard how they got on on their return to Mugabe's paradise - - -

[Blacksheep]

this was a lash-up

The Rhodesian Air Force had a lot of ex-Halton Brats in their ranks, so there was no need of such a thing as a "lash-up". All improvisations would have been well thought out and designed modifications, beautifully executed by highly skilled technicians.

[Airbrake]

Jellybrain, check your pm's.

Cheers.

[Dengue_Dude]

SirPeterHardingsLovechild

Hi again, I've learned about 5 aircraft since then so not surprised I'm rusty . . .

The cartridge has a damn great bolt through the bottom and is engraved etc and also has a 231 OCU badge stuck on it. Can't really get at it as it's on a lovely little oak plinth (done in the Carpenter's Shop at Wyton).

But I'm sure you're right.

Off topic really but best of luck to the project. I enjoyed my little bit of flying in the Canberra, especially Wyton-Pratica de Mare-Akrotiri with Dave Pipes and Badger, went back in a Tristar (my next posting then).

Oh, nostalgia

[Rigex]

Cartridges (sligtly off-thread)

I remember being on a secret RAF/Navy Sqdn operating highly secret T17s, which were full of amazing secret gubbins which all had mysterious names/nomenclatures which only the "Fairies" (electronics persons) understood - giving them something of an advantage in the "Trade-cred" ratings. One of the RN A/E (= sooty/rigger in RAF) decided to enhance his/their image. Thus it came to be, that where previously an old carton with "used cartridges" scrawled on it had been, now stood a wooden box with "Expended Propulsion Unit Motivation Initionators" proudly stencilled thereon.

[mtoroshanga]

Canberra starting

The Rhodesian Air Force used a standard air bottle trolley with a dummy cartridge in the breech. It took a bit longer to spin up but when started the blank was removed and a standard cartridge fitted into the breech. It was certainly no lash up. Away from base the SOP was observed.
As far as I remember use of the air start extended starter life.

[Wander00]

But not the nostalgiia of the, "bang", and the whiff of cordite through the DV window!

[Lukeafb1]

So you were based in Rutland as well, Rigex!

[Rigex]

lukeafb1

Yup, was there for the end of the Triangles, then 115 Varsitys / Whistling Wheelbarrows, then the mighty 360th! All that and Ruddles too. . .