Canberra Air Start
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If y'all want to experience the nostalgia, the Canberra I'm working on is for sale, if you a few million laying around waiting for a good cause.
Thanks for the pointer on the air start.
Thanks for the pointer on the air start.
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I seem to remember that when the PR9s RR 206s were sent back to Rolls Royce for servicing, they did not bother with the Avpin starter. It seems they unbolted that from the front of the engine, and replaced it with an electric starter, salvaged from the engine off a Caravelle.
comet avon was elec start as well , remember canopus and the RAE one regularly tripping modern GPU's when away from base ! believe one lightning T4 had elec start as a trail years ago .
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Canberra for sale
jedinein
Reference your post on Canberra Air Start discussion - Is the Canberra still for sale and if so please provide details - Where is it, what state is it in, which model etc.
I have been searching for a Canberra to buy for years, either flying or that can restored back to airworthy status so if there is anyone out there that knows of one I would love to hear about it
Many thanks
Craig Brent
Reference your post on Canberra Air Start discussion - Is the Canberra still for sale and if so please provide details - Where is it, what state is it in, which model etc.
I have been searching for a Canberra to buy for years, either flying or that can restored back to airworthy status so if there is anyone out there that knows of one I would love to hear about it
Many thanks
Craig Brent
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Avon starting !
Don't know if this helps taken from a Rhodesian Air Force site:
quote:
Avon Engines in general.
The starting systems of these engines has not been discussed up to this point. The Avon 1 as fitted to the Canberras that we had, used a single breech cartridge starter. When the cartridge was fired, the high velocity gasses went through guide vanes and forced the small turbine to spin at very high speed driving through a reduction gearing to the engine. The engine would rotate up to 1000+ rpm, causing sufficient air flow through the engine to allow fuel and ignition to cause combustion to take place, which achieved slow running speed. This made the A/C self sufficient to operate at any airfield without the use of any ground equipment, eg starting houbart or battery cart as for the Vampire.
The Avon 207 as fitted to our Hunters had a completely different starting system. However the same principle applied in that it was self sufficient, being able to obtain 3 starts at any airfield without ground equipment. The starter was like a small jet engine, which used a fuel called AVPIN. When operated, the scavenge pump blasted air through the starter for 5 seconds, and then fuel and ignition. The starter would explode into life. A heavy blast out the starter exhaust caused a tremendous noise for about 10–12 seconds. The starter turbine reached 33,000 rpm. and with a gear reduction, an engine speed of 1200rpm. was achieved. I can remember, during Hunter starting, with gloves on, putting out flames at the starter exhaust, ensuring all was extinguished before closing the starter bay door. The AVPIN system was a tank situated on the inside top of the fuselage, with a cap for refilling. This was capable of giving 3 starts. A pump would draw Avpin to supply the starter combustion chamber and an electrical control box introduced ignition as well as timing of the starting
cycle.
Compressed Air Starting.
Due to the cost and difficulty in obtaining cartridges for the Avon 1 and also conserving starter life, air starting was desirable to use at home base and cartridges used for away trips. A removable adaptor was fitted to the front of the starter to take the compressed air line nozzle. It took a lot of experimenting and eventually ended up with 4x large air bottles on a trolley, connected via a controllable on/off cock onto one air line to the engine starter. All the bottles were charged to 3000+ psi. which would rotate the engine to about 980 rpm -just enough for light up! About 3x starts could be obtained from a set of bottles.
A recharging facility had to be installed at ERS. This was an industrial type Atlas Copco compressor which did the job of recharging the bottles on trolleys for 5 Sqdn and our own test-bed use.
The Avon 207 air starting presented problems when fitted to the A/C. For test bed use an old starter was used, with the combustion chamber removed and the guide vanes retained. A thick flat plate was manufactured which had a correctly angled pipe welded on with a nozzle attachment for the HP starting air line. With 4 x 3000 psi bottles released, the engine would turn over at 900+ rpm, enough for light up. A set of bottles would achieve 2x good starts. This system did very well for our ERS and test bed requirements, as well as for doing a starting run for inhibiting engines with thin oil. But fitting it to the Hunter was another story. It could be fitted with the flat plate system (as per test bed) but then there would be no Avpin system. It was tried of cause and worked well with the HP air line coming out through the starter bay. There were many unsuccessful attempts at adapting the Avon 207 starter combustion chamber to
take the HP air connection as well as using the normal Avpin starting system. For this reason, the A/C had to remain with the Avpin starting system. Having to have air starting bottles away from base would not make the A/C self sufficient. It seemed the avpin was somehow obtainable, but the spares for the starter, ie the turbines and bearings etc, were difficult to obtain.
unquote.
Paul H.
quote:
Avon Engines in general.
The starting systems of these engines has not been discussed up to this point. The Avon 1 as fitted to the Canberras that we had, used a single breech cartridge starter. When the cartridge was fired, the high velocity gasses went through guide vanes and forced the small turbine to spin at very high speed driving through a reduction gearing to the engine. The engine would rotate up to 1000+ rpm, causing sufficient air flow through the engine to allow fuel and ignition to cause combustion to take place, which achieved slow running speed. This made the A/C self sufficient to operate at any airfield without the use of any ground equipment, eg starting houbart or battery cart as for the Vampire.
The Avon 207 as fitted to our Hunters had a completely different starting system. However the same principle applied in that it was self sufficient, being able to obtain 3 starts at any airfield without ground equipment. The starter was like a small jet engine, which used a fuel called AVPIN. When operated, the scavenge pump blasted air through the starter for 5 seconds, and then fuel and ignition. The starter would explode into life. A heavy blast out the starter exhaust caused a tremendous noise for about 10–12 seconds. The starter turbine reached 33,000 rpm. and with a gear reduction, an engine speed of 1200rpm. was achieved. I can remember, during Hunter starting, with gloves on, putting out flames at the starter exhaust, ensuring all was extinguished before closing the starter bay door. The AVPIN system was a tank situated on the inside top of the fuselage, with a cap for refilling. This was capable of giving 3 starts. A pump would draw Avpin to supply the starter combustion chamber and an electrical control box introduced ignition as well as timing of the starting
cycle.
Compressed Air Starting.
Due to the cost and difficulty in obtaining cartridges for the Avon 1 and also conserving starter life, air starting was desirable to use at home base and cartridges used for away trips. A removable adaptor was fitted to the front of the starter to take the compressed air line nozzle. It took a lot of experimenting and eventually ended up with 4x large air bottles on a trolley, connected via a controllable on/off cock onto one air line to the engine starter. All the bottles were charged to 3000+ psi. which would rotate the engine to about 980 rpm -just enough for light up! About 3x starts could be obtained from a set of bottles.
A recharging facility had to be installed at ERS. This was an industrial type Atlas Copco compressor which did the job of recharging the bottles on trolleys for 5 Sqdn and our own test-bed use.
The Avon 207 air starting presented problems when fitted to the A/C. For test bed use an old starter was used, with the combustion chamber removed and the guide vanes retained. A thick flat plate was manufactured which had a correctly angled pipe welded on with a nozzle attachment for the HP starting air line. With 4 x 3000 psi bottles released, the engine would turn over at 900+ rpm, enough for light up. A set of bottles would achieve 2x good starts. This system did very well for our ERS and test bed requirements, as well as for doing a starting run for inhibiting engines with thin oil. But fitting it to the Hunter was another story. It could be fitted with the flat plate system (as per test bed) but then there would be no Avpin system. It was tried of cause and worked well with the HP air line coming out through the starter bay. There were many unsuccessful attempts at adapting the Avon 207 starter combustion chamber to
take the HP air connection as well as using the normal Avpin starting system. For this reason, the A/C had to remain with the Avpin starting system. Having to have air starting bottles away from base would not make the A/C self sufficient. It seemed the avpin was somehow obtainable, but the spares for the starter, ie the turbines and bearings etc, were difficult to obtain.
unquote.
Paul H.
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Thus it came to be, that where previously an old carton with "used cartridges" scrawled on it
