US Air Force Zoomies At It Again!
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You can't prove a negative.
You can prove something DOES exist (or whatever) but not that it doesn't.
So religion is basically a lot of people who can't prove there is a God (by whatever name) - and, here's the clincher, if you try to prove existence you've been double huffed or something and lose the game - who are opposed by a lot of people who can't prove there isn't a God (etc etc).
All in all a wonderful example of why the human race really does need to get out more.
You can prove something DOES exist (or whatever) but not that it doesn't.
So religion is basically a lot of people who can't prove there is a God (by whatever name) - and, here's the clincher, if you try to prove existence you've been double huffed or something and lose the game - who are opposed by a lot of people who can't prove there isn't a God (etc etc).
All in all a wonderful example of why the human race really does need to get out more.
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Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
Which we are proud to serve;
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve.
It may have been the policy of the "leadership" (Admiral Howe, was it? I forget.) But nerve was never seen there...
Frightened wimps they became, frightened wimps they stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound, and a year later as frightened wimps they ran.
The opposition, mostly untrained, unorganised anarchic teenagers clad in tee shorts, flipflops with worn out AK47s and no heavy weapons did not exactly see this as a defeat...
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 3rd Feb 2010 at 18:50.
Thread Starter
AB,
Perhaps you know not what of you speak, Sir.
I was there for a while flying White Helicopters with "UN" painted on them....and actually saw them leave. I stood there and waved as the last of them extracted from the beach. I purposely ruined a CNN reporter's taping of his commentary about how the American Forces had been forced to lower their flag in defeat....he was British too I might add....and a compete Wxnker.
Perhaps my opinon of the US Marines is different than yours....but at least mine was formed watching them first hand. The provided me tools, oils, food, and other support despite my working for a British firm. Without them, we would have been very embarrassed upon our arrival with the aircraft as our Techie's had left out one very critical tool with which to put our aircraft back together. The USMC kindly lent us what we needed.
Would you mind explaining where you came up with your views on the Gyrenes?
Perhaps you know not what of you speak, Sir.
I was there for a while flying White Helicopters with "UN" painted on them....and actually saw them leave. I stood there and waved as the last of them extracted from the beach. I purposely ruined a CNN reporter's taping of his commentary about how the American Forces had been forced to lower their flag in defeat....he was British too I might add....and a compete Wxnker.
Perhaps my opinon of the US Marines is different than yours....but at least mine was formed watching them first hand. The provided me tools, oils, food, and other support despite my working for a British firm. Without them, we would have been very embarrassed upon our arrival with the aircraft as our Techie's had left out one very critical tool with which to put our aircraft back together. The USMC kindly lent us what we needed.
Would you mind explaining where you came up with your views on the Gyrenes?
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bunch of frightened rubber-toothed wimps.
Aviator Extraordinaire
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Except in Somalia, where they turned into a bunch of frightened rubber-toothed wimps.
It may have been the policy of the "leadership" (Admiral Howe, was it? I forget.) But nerve was never seen there...
Frightened wimps they became, frightened wimps they stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound, and a year later as frightened wimps they ran.
The opposition, mostly untrained, unorganised anarchic teenagers clad in tee shorts, flipflops with worn out AK47s and no heavy weapons did not exactly see this as a defeat...
It may have been the policy of the "leadership" (Admiral Howe, was it? I forget.) But nerve was never seen there...
Frightened wimps they became, frightened wimps they stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound, and a year later as frightened wimps they ran.
The opposition, mostly untrained, unorganised anarchic teenagers clad in tee shorts, flipflops with worn out AK47s and no heavy weapons did not exactly see this as a defeat...
The Marine Corps left with honor and dignity intack.
Also, only a lilly livered coward would dare insult a fighting force with the history of the United States Marine Corps behind false name on a website.
You sir, are a total waste of oxygen.
Oh, I take the 'sir' back.
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And the "Christians" have shown their usual tolerance for other beliefs...
Christians Desecrate Wiccan Religious Site at Air Force Academy : Veterans Today
Can the burning-at-the-stake be far behind?
Perhaps they can start up a new Inquisition?
I was raised a Baptist, but left that behind... and for most of my 8 years in the USMC in the 1980s I could best be described as a Wiccan... with definite Buddhist influences.
I am glad the US constitution protects us from religious dictatorships like some on this thread seem happy with (as long at it is a Christian dictatorship led by their particular form of Christianity).
Christians Desecrate Wiccan Religious Site at Air Force Academy : Veterans Today
Can the burning-at-the-stake be far behind?
Perhaps they can start up a new Inquisition?
I was raised a Baptist, but left that behind... and for most of my 8 years in the USMC in the 1980s I could best be described as a Wiccan... with definite Buddhist influences.
I am glad the US constitution protects us from religious dictatorships like some on this thread seem happy with (as long at it is a Christian dictatorship led by their particular form of Christianity).
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[/quote]
That’s American for Thanksgiving (thanking who?), Hanukkah and Christmas. So it's a bigger euphemism than you supposed. I don’t think it will be too long before it also includes Ramadan. It certainly did for me that year.
"The holidays." Is this a euphemism for Christmas?
Thread Starter
Mark Twain.....A Man Ahead Of His Time!
Mark Twain had several interesting views on religion and politics.....
We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us.
AB
I was in Somalia. Saw nothing of the like. Would it be too much to back it up with facts?
Yeah, I thought so. A troll
Now I know you're full of it, I damn sure would have known about that. The Italians did put on a mean pasta night weekly to which they invited all the different branches of the military.
Beag's
You watch to many movies. There were however (are still I imagine) methods of dealing with the Private Santiago's of the world. Not necessarily pleasant.
I was in Somalia. Saw nothing of the like. Would it be too much to back it up with facts?
Yeah, I thought so. A troll
stayed in their vast air-conditioned, ice cream and burger bar serviced compound
Beag's
You watch to many movies. There were however (are still I imagine) methods of dealing with the Private Santiago's of the world. Not necessarily pleasant.
I have to say that A Few Good Men was a bit of a disappointment - as it must be one of the few of her films in which Demi Moore appears fully-clothed throughout....
Over here, some PC-idiot tried to change the official 'Christmas' holiday of some school to 'Winterval' holiday.
Most outrage came from the local Moslem community who basically said that this would just cause trouble and there was no way they supported such pathetic bureaucratic bull$hit.
Over here, some PC-idiot tried to change the official 'Christmas' holiday of some school to 'Winterval' holiday.
Most outrage came from the local Moslem community who basically said that this would just cause trouble and there was no way they supported such pathetic bureaucratic bull$hit.
Last edited by BEagle; 4th Feb 2010 at 17:13.
her films in which Demi Moore appears fully-clothed throughout....
I'm sure the RM's have been known to knock a slacker around a wee bit.
It aint the boy scouts...
Thread Starter
Someone once said....She's a terrible actor!
My response was simple...."Who cares!"
This thread seems to have developed into a knock/defend the US Marines fest, but as SASless started the thread and is joining in the general melee, who am I to complain about huge thread drift?
That said, SASless, I wonder what aspect of being a Wiccan, say, you would consider is incompatible with being a US Marine (going back to Post #1). I take it that many marines are members of Christian churches, Jews, etc, (lets not complicate matters by bringing in Moslems, it tends to get some PPruners foaming at the mouth), and to an outsider these organisations have beliefs and practices no less arcane than those of the Wiccans. Serious question, a thoughtful response would be much appreciated.
That said, SASless, I wonder what aspect of being a Wiccan, say, you would consider is incompatible with being a US Marine (going back to Post #1). I take it that many marines are members of Christian churches, Jews, etc, (lets not complicate matters by bringing in Moslems, it tends to get some PPruners foaming at the mouth), and to an outsider these organisations have beliefs and practices no less arcane than those of the Wiccans. Serious question, a thoughtful response would be much appreciated.
Thread Starter
Traditionally, US Military bases have Chapels that are themselves structures that are non-denominational and are used by all faiths for the conduct of religious services. The Air Force Academy has such a Chapel.
There is no reason under the Sun I see to change that concept as the military has always been a leader in social change and inclusion. The current Air Force Academy effort to counter complaints of failing to live up to those ideals, in my view defeats the core concepts our military has embraced re religion.
I would suggest bringing the various faiths together and supporting none over the other is the right way towards acheiving harmony.
If the military cannot live tolerance and acceptance of one another's religious beliefs then how can units function in a cohesive manner during combat and other times of great stress. We are all one big Band of Brothers (and Sisters)....and should be that way in all regards to include religious matters (meaning acceptance, tolerance, and support of our fellows).
I may not embrace their beliefs but being an American.....I believe in their right to worship as they please in general provided the "religion" is based upon concepts that promote peace, love, respect, and the like.
Personally, I find the practice of Witchcraft to fall short of what I would consider a religion. Spirit worship by Native Americans is quite acceptable to me. Most religions have stemmed from beliefs that are centuries old and not just from 1933 thus I question whether some forms of Wicca are suitable to be called a religion in the true definition of religion.
My angst is not the practice of religion but the continued separation of the varioius sects which in my mine undermines acceptance, tolerance, and embracing of our fellow man.
Did not Major Hassan claim persecution as one of his motives? What if he and non-muslim believers had been brought closer together by military policy rather than separated.....would that worked to prevent such feelings of hostility?
The Indian Army seems to have found a way to incorporate very different beliefs amongst their force and seem to be quite effective as a fighting force. Maybe we can learn from them if we would seek their counsel.
There is your serious answer......what is your serious reply?
There is no reason under the Sun I see to change that concept as the military has always been a leader in social change and inclusion. The current Air Force Academy effort to counter complaints of failing to live up to those ideals, in my view defeats the core concepts our military has embraced re religion.
I would suggest bringing the various faiths together and supporting none over the other is the right way towards acheiving harmony.
If the military cannot live tolerance and acceptance of one another's religious beliefs then how can units function in a cohesive manner during combat and other times of great stress. We are all one big Band of Brothers (and Sisters)....and should be that way in all regards to include religious matters (meaning acceptance, tolerance, and support of our fellows).
I may not embrace their beliefs but being an American.....I believe in their right to worship as they please in general provided the "religion" is based upon concepts that promote peace, love, respect, and the like.
Personally, I find the practice of Witchcraft to fall short of what I would consider a religion. Spirit worship by Native Americans is quite acceptable to me. Most religions have stemmed from beliefs that are centuries old and not just from 1933 thus I question whether some forms of Wicca are suitable to be called a religion in the true definition of religion.
My angst is not the practice of religion but the continued separation of the varioius sects which in my mine undermines acceptance, tolerance, and embracing of our fellow man.
Did not Major Hassan claim persecution as one of his motives? What if he and non-muslim believers had been brought closer together by military policy rather than separated.....would that worked to prevent such feelings of hostility?
The Indian Army seems to have found a way to incorporate very different beliefs amongst their force and seem to be quite effective as a fighting force. Maybe we can learn from them if we would seek their counsel.
There is your serious answer......what is your serious reply?
Thread Starter
Fetterman, Custer, and those that later fought the Apaches discovered Earth Lovers could be difficult adversaries.
SASless
My serious reply is that I agree with about 99% of what you say - a thoughtful and considered response
I think maybe wiccans bring a little of the problem on themself by use of the word "witchcraft" which conjures up images of spells, curses and devil worship which certainly play no part in the way of life adopted by any wiccans I have come across.
That said I totally agree with you about tolerance for all. I'm not a believer myself, but get really annoyed with ill-educated and just plain rude attacks on people of faith that crop up everywhere, this forum included. I see little to choose between Islamophobia, anti-Semitism or indeed intolerance of any religions (I was brought up a Catholic in a Protestant area, so was on the receiving end of plenty as a kid, and probably indulged in some myself, to my shame).
I like your example of the Indian Army btw. If they can get people to live together in mutual tolerance in a society that has all the potential to be a religious powderkeg, then that is a great achievment.
My serious reply is that I agree with about 99% of what you say - a thoughtful and considered response
I think maybe wiccans bring a little of the problem on themself by use of the word "witchcraft" which conjures up images of spells, curses and devil worship which certainly play no part in the way of life adopted by any wiccans I have come across.
That said I totally agree with you about tolerance for all. I'm not a believer myself, but get really annoyed with ill-educated and just plain rude attacks on people of faith that crop up everywhere, this forum included. I see little to choose between Islamophobia, anti-Semitism or indeed intolerance of any religions (I was brought up a Catholic in a Protestant area, so was on the receiving end of plenty as a kid, and probably indulged in some myself, to my shame).
I like your example of the Indian Army btw. If they can get people to live together in mutual tolerance in a society that has all the potential to be a religious powderkeg, then that is a great achievment.
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I think maybe wiccans bring a little of the problem on themself by use of the word "witchcraft" which conjures up images of spells, curses and devil worship which certainly play no part in the way of life adopted by any wiccans I have come across.
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Sasless, explain? Most certainly.
After the heroism of that "assault" of an undefended beach under the klieg lights of the world's press there was a huge and open opportunity to disarm Mogadishu according to the UN mandate. The majority of Somalis desperately wanted an end to the slaughter and were ready and willing to disarm.
Far from carrying out their stated policy of disarmament the UN forces, which at that time were almost exclusively US plus some Pakistanis who had been there since Operation Restore Hope 1 soon withdrew into their compounds and did very little. There were some early successes at PR and they were well recieved initially but the tough Pakistani reputation that had gaied them respect amongst the Somalis (because they shot back when necessary) was not achieved by the US forces, which includes the Marines. They rapidly became despised by the Somalis as not proper warriors because thay would not reply in kind, until their Humvee patrols got to the stage of public humiliation by having ray-bans snatched from their faces by children, secure in the knowledge that no retaliation would occur. Somalis do not understand the rule of law; real men fight, the rest are beneath contempt. A vigorous application of Rule.303 gets their attention, little else. Precious little of that was seen.
They quickly hunkered down in their compounds (for the doubters the main UN compound was equipped with burger bars etc) and only appeared in armoured veghicles which even the Somalis could see meant they were frightened to come out into the open.
The mandate to resolve the famine was a waste of time as the military (which includes the USMC) refused to co-operate with humanitarian agencies in providing escorts for relief convoys outside the city as it was "too dangerous" (unarmed civvy NGO staff in soft skinned vehicles did not have a problem with that...), one "reason" being; what would they do if one of their vehicles broke down? They couldn't abandon it (why not) and it would be too dangerous to guard it overnight. It really seemed at the time that they were afraid of the dark. Are you getting my drift?
Even when convoys were reluctantly arranged at vast expenditure of effort and in the face of endless military obstruction they were almost invarialbly cancelled without warning at the last minute by the military citing "operational requirements" which were never explained, audible or visible. ("Operational" events in Mogadishu tended to be very obvious and noisy...)
Sure, there was a lot of helicopter, and larger, activity, but on the ground the 35,000 UN troops were pretty much worthless, but the risk-aversion on the ground was pathetic.
In the year I was there I think the UN forces provided maybe2 or 3 escorts for food convoys. Total. DCO, then? Not.
Little doubt, as I stated, that rules of engagement and policy let them down, but no military, except possibly the Pakistanis, and maybe the Italians, Germans and others who were fortunate enough to be up-country and not mired in Mog, left Somalia without their tails between their legs.
Not too heroic, then, after all.
So they lent spares and tools..Wow! They once gave my aeroplane 30 gallons of seawater mixed into the Avtur. That was generous too, wasn't it? But no-one suggested they were mean, just not mean enough.
And if you think this is all a bit far-fetched, read the following...
Site - Main - Reference Library
After the heroism of that "assault" of an undefended beach under the klieg lights of the world's press there was a huge and open opportunity to disarm Mogadishu according to the UN mandate. The majority of Somalis desperately wanted an end to the slaughter and were ready and willing to disarm.
Far from carrying out their stated policy of disarmament the UN forces, which at that time were almost exclusively US plus some Pakistanis who had been there since Operation Restore Hope 1 soon withdrew into their compounds and did very little. There were some early successes at PR and they were well recieved initially but the tough Pakistani reputation that had gaied them respect amongst the Somalis (because they shot back when necessary) was not achieved by the US forces, which includes the Marines. They rapidly became despised by the Somalis as not proper warriors because thay would not reply in kind, until their Humvee patrols got to the stage of public humiliation by having ray-bans snatched from their faces by children, secure in the knowledge that no retaliation would occur. Somalis do not understand the rule of law; real men fight, the rest are beneath contempt. A vigorous application of Rule.303 gets their attention, little else. Precious little of that was seen.
They quickly hunkered down in their compounds (for the doubters the main UN compound was equipped with burger bars etc) and only appeared in armoured veghicles which even the Somalis could see meant they were frightened to come out into the open.
The mandate to resolve the famine was a waste of time as the military (which includes the USMC) refused to co-operate with humanitarian agencies in providing escorts for relief convoys outside the city as it was "too dangerous" (unarmed civvy NGO staff in soft skinned vehicles did not have a problem with that...), one "reason" being; what would they do if one of their vehicles broke down? They couldn't abandon it (why not) and it would be too dangerous to guard it overnight. It really seemed at the time that they were afraid of the dark. Are you getting my drift?
Even when convoys were reluctantly arranged at vast expenditure of effort and in the face of endless military obstruction they were almost invarialbly cancelled without warning at the last minute by the military citing "operational requirements" which were never explained, audible or visible. ("Operational" events in Mogadishu tended to be very obvious and noisy...)
Sure, there was a lot of helicopter, and larger, activity, but on the ground the 35,000 UN troops were pretty much worthless, but the risk-aversion on the ground was pathetic.
In the year I was there I think the UN forces provided maybe2 or 3 escorts for food convoys. Total. DCO, then? Not.
Little doubt, as I stated, that rules of engagement and policy let them down, but no military, except possibly the Pakistanis, and maybe the Italians, Germans and others who were fortunate enough to be up-country and not mired in Mog, left Somalia without their tails between their legs.
Not too heroic, then, after all.
So they lent spares and tools..Wow! They once gave my aeroplane 30 gallons of seawater mixed into the Avtur. That was generous too, wasn't it? But no-one suggested they were mean, just not mean enough.
And if you think this is all a bit far-fetched, read the following...
Site - Main - Reference Library
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 5th Feb 2010 at 11:53.