Does anyone else feel the same?
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Does anyone else feel the same?
Words cannot describe how hacked off I am with all this news about cuts and reallocation of funds (aka more cuts and short sighted decision making). I worked bloody hard to get into the Military to do a job I dreamt of doing since childhood. Yet these days I feel completely and utterly let down by these so-called decisions. The guys and girls I work with are second to none and I believe that a vast proportion of the public are behind us and support us. The way we're going I feel as though we're being cheated....utterly utterly cheated.
I am not going to blab to a tabloid, nor am I going to pour my heart and soul out on TV but just how can we, as the military, air our voices and concerns properly.
Does Joe Public realise that without a true MPA capability it might just be them that needs long range SAR cover. What happens when another country starts to rattle its sabre with subs or surface units. Have we forgotten that we are an Island nation and that keeping our coastlines safe and secure is paramount? I'm sure that the image of HM forces is one of...they'll always come up with the goods, but I am very fearful that if we carry on we will end up with an even bloodier nose and worst of all let our public down
As for Harrier and Tornado...well I really don't need to go there. It's ludicrous. Why oh why do we, as Great Britain plc see the necessity to offer billions of pounds in foreign aid when it's our own country that needs this money.
Why do our top brass not fight, and I mean bloody well fight for our causes. I am sure that if the general public were made aware of this there would be uproar. Or am I missing something here? Standing by for comments....rant off
I am not going to blab to a tabloid, nor am I going to pour my heart and soul out on TV but just how can we, as the military, air our voices and concerns properly.
Does Joe Public realise that without a true MPA capability it might just be them that needs long range SAR cover. What happens when another country starts to rattle its sabre with subs or surface units. Have we forgotten that we are an Island nation and that keeping our coastlines safe and secure is paramount? I'm sure that the image of HM forces is one of...they'll always come up with the goods, but I am very fearful that if we carry on we will end up with an even bloodier nose and worst of all let our public down
As for Harrier and Tornado...well I really don't need to go there. It's ludicrous. Why oh why do we, as Great Britain plc see the necessity to offer billions of pounds in foreign aid when it's our own country that needs this money.
Why do our top brass not fight, and I mean bloody well fight for our causes. I am sure that if the general public were made aware of this there would be uproar. Or am I missing something here? Standing by for comments....rant off
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Why do our top brass not fight, and I mean bloody well fight for our causes. I am sure that if the general public were made aware of this there would be uproar. Or am I missing something here? Standing by for comments....rant off
Ainsworth? Nah...He's not clever enough and besides, he doesn't know where Cottesmore is
Drayson.... Nah, too busy flying across the Atlantic
Rammel..... oh no.... (Can he write?)
No, the people who made these cuts were Chris Moran and his mate McNicholl.... Those are the top Brass and they are the ones who offered up these cuts.
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I think you have to look across UK PLC. Whilst it may not directly affect you, I suspect that there are police officers, doctors, firefighters etc all saying exactly the same thing. The country is in deep financial poo and the sad thing is that cuts have to be made. The problem with the military is that it has inertia (especially in equipment programmes) so any quick change that is required has to be dirty and often illogical.
If I were to vent my spleen at anyone, it would be our PM who devolved regulation of the finance industry, encouraged extreme capitalism (rather bizarre for a socialist), raided the piggy bank and, generally, was frivolous with our wealth.
If I were to vent my spleen at anyone, it would be our PM who devolved regulation of the finance industry, encouraged extreme capitalism (rather bizarre for a socialist), raided the piggy bank and, generally, was frivolous with our wealth.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Actually the knife man wore green.
It was said by Dannatt almost a year ago, not in public at the time, that all training would be focussed on Afg and all traditionally generic training would cease. He said something else too which may have entered the public domain but I am not sure.
Essentially, after twice the length of the 1st WW and longer than the 2nd WW, we are facing up to the reality that we are engaged in a major military endeavour.
While Torpy was heavily criticised for being Typhoon centric when many said we needed more SH, so it has come to pass. Only the Typhoon seems to be aimed at the future; the rest seem up for the chop.
What chance Illustrious next?
It was said by Dannatt almost a year ago, not in public at the time, that all training would be focussed on Afg and all traditionally generic training would cease. He said something else too which may have entered the public domain but I am not sure.
Essentially, after twice the length of the 1st WW and longer than the 2nd WW, we are facing up to the reality that we are engaged in a major military endeavour.
While Torpy was heavily criticised for being Typhoon centric when many said we needed more SH, so it has come to pass. Only the Typhoon seems to be aimed at the future; the rest seem up for the chop.
What chance Illustrious next?
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Spanner,
Nice rant mate.
No you are not alone, many people feel the same, but for all that we are, we are not politicians, we can't change policy. Our job is to do what we are told, when we are told and to do it to the best of our ability.
If we don't like it, then we have the choice to go, not an easy one (at all) but it is our choice. I agree with you wholeheartedly but there is a limit as to what we can do, change govts? Fair enough, can do, but what guarantee have we got that the next lot won't stiff us equally as much?
I think, mate, that it's heads down and work through it. All the ranting in the world ain't gonna change the price of fish for us. Nice to let off a bit of steam though!
Nice rant mate.
No you are not alone, many people feel the same, but for all that we are, we are not politicians, we can't change policy. Our job is to do what we are told, when we are told and to do it to the best of our ability.
If we don't like it, then we have the choice to go, not an easy one (at all) but it is our choice. I agree with you wholeheartedly but there is a limit as to what we can do, change govts? Fair enough, can do, but what guarantee have we got that the next lot won't stiff us equally as much?
I think, mate, that it's heads down and work through it. All the ranting in the world ain't gonna change the price of fish for us. Nice to let off a bit of steam though!
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I was wondering today just how much longer are we going to have an airforce. We seem to be concentrating entirely on Afghanistan now, and everything else is non essential or no longer required. These wakners must think that skills can be stored away with the kit, and wheeled out again when needed. God help us if we ever have to fight in an all out war in the future.
Is the UK, even with current assets, capable of going it alone in the defense of the country from an aggessive sea and air blockade? I find it hard to imagine any set of circumstances where the UK would be left to its own devices in any sort of confrontation. Thus, at what point does the UK begin to need only a token military capability focussed solely upon homeland defense alone?
Does the UK have the same/comparable capability it did during the Falklands War?
Does the UK have the same/comparable capability it did during the Falklands War?
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Is the UK, even with current assets, capable of going it alone in the defense of the country from an aggessive sea and air blockade? I find it hard to imagine any set of circumstances where the UK would be left to its own devices in any sort of confrontation. Thus, at what point does the UK begin to need only a token military capability focussed solely upon homeland defense alone?
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Agreed with all of the above, and even though we have eventual action on the CH47 requirement nearly 10 years late, I forsee that even this investment will have every attempt to bring it into service on the cheap - I do not envy those that will be responsible for overseeing this lot!
Also agreed we will just have to put our heads down and get on with it- for now. But loyalty goes both ways, and however much we maybe required to reduce recruiting or retention now, we all know that when the economy picks up (and the airline industry is cyclical-as is any industry) then I will wager that those 'sticking with it' due to no employment outside in 2009/2010, will soon depart.
And these will not be the newbies or easily filled jobs within the forces, but the very experienced, with key skill sets that will remember this Govt and what it has done to Her Majesty's Armed Forces and be the first to leave.
I remember seeing a thread on PPrune a number of years ago to do with being broke (before the recession):
'If I was broke, I would not go out and I would only spend essential money'
So if we are that broke, lets not go out (i.e. SDR = only UK Homeland Security and British territories - no Gulf War 1, Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 2, Iraq, Afghanistan and (only if the need ever arises) only the Falklands, Gibraltar and other places where the Union Flag flys) and lets not spend (rather than providing HM Govt aid to foreign nations/ foreign projects, save our resources for UK departments-Health, Education, Police, Security Services etc).
Where I dont agree is where the current Govt wants its cake and enjoys eating it and is trying to schmulz on the world stage whilst pretending that it can afford the 'punch above its weight' which ultimatey screws everyone over - public, servicemen/women and all of the other H M Govt departments.
If SDR recognises this and H M Govt re-aligns its global expectations then we too have to realign our expectations to a British Defence Force that only protects UK waters and mainland, with very limited overseas intervention in UK only 'conflicts' (more like disaster relief or NEO).
We as a nation used to be able to punch above our weight - sadly the punch is more like a tickle and the weight is not of a boxer, but too many obese and fat (physically, metaphorically and morally).
We are servants of the Crown - and if the Crown does not want (or cannot afford) an expeditionary warfighting Armed Forces then lets write our doctrine, equip and train our forces for our new role - defending British shores and not fighting under resourced in far off lands, paying for it by selling off the family silver that just maybe required for tomorrows war of national survival..
Also agreed we will just have to put our heads down and get on with it- for now. But loyalty goes both ways, and however much we maybe required to reduce recruiting or retention now, we all know that when the economy picks up (and the airline industry is cyclical-as is any industry) then I will wager that those 'sticking with it' due to no employment outside in 2009/2010, will soon depart.
And these will not be the newbies or easily filled jobs within the forces, but the very experienced, with key skill sets that will remember this Govt and what it has done to Her Majesty's Armed Forces and be the first to leave.
I remember seeing a thread on PPrune a number of years ago to do with being broke (before the recession):
'If I was broke, I would not go out and I would only spend essential money'
So if we are that broke, lets not go out (i.e. SDR = only UK Homeland Security and British territories - no Gulf War 1, Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 2, Iraq, Afghanistan and (only if the need ever arises) only the Falklands, Gibraltar and other places where the Union Flag flys) and lets not spend (rather than providing HM Govt aid to foreign nations/ foreign projects, save our resources for UK departments-Health, Education, Police, Security Services etc).
Where I dont agree is where the current Govt wants its cake and enjoys eating it and is trying to schmulz on the world stage whilst pretending that it can afford the 'punch above its weight' which ultimatey screws everyone over - public, servicemen/women and all of the other H M Govt departments.
If SDR recognises this and H M Govt re-aligns its global expectations then we too have to realign our expectations to a British Defence Force that only protects UK waters and mainland, with very limited overseas intervention in UK only 'conflicts' (more like disaster relief or NEO).
We as a nation used to be able to punch above our weight - sadly the punch is more like a tickle and the weight is not of a boxer, but too many obese and fat (physically, metaphorically and morally).
We are servants of the Crown - and if the Crown does not want (or cannot afford) an expeditionary warfighting Armed Forces then lets write our doctrine, equip and train our forces for our new role - defending British shores and not fighting under resourced in far off lands, paying for it by selling off the family silver that just maybe required for tomorrows war of national survival..
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Well said all. its just a crying shame that joe p is more interested in strictly x factor jungle madonna jordan and what they are doing this weekend and whether they have caught some STD or been in a drunken brawl than the importance of this nation.
We (as a society) are about to reap the whirlwind. Put your money in canned food and shotguns.
We (as a society) are about to reap the whirlwind. Put your money in canned food and shotguns.
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Some well expressed and heart-felt sentiments in the previous posts, and we can always banter about getting F'ed about by professions and the consequences of inability to take a joke, et al.
The bottom line is that, if UK plc wants to maintain the professed position of a first-rank World power, with a permanent seat on the UNSC and in the G7/8, the government, no matter which side of the expense-rorting fence it comes from, must resource its policies, and if one of those policies is to use its military on protracted campaigns to retain the image of Empire, the budget must fit the ambition. Unfortunately, a previous 'glorious leader's' legacy of ensuring his place in history has, along with criminal mismanagement by Service and civvie 'leaders' within the MOD, left those of is still mannig the trenches in the deepest, darkest, smelliest guano seen since about 1936.
S.O.
The bottom line is that, if UK plc wants to maintain the professed position of a first-rank World power, with a permanent seat on the UNSC and in the G7/8, the government, no matter which side of the expense-rorting fence it comes from, must resource its policies, and if one of those policies is to use its military on protracted campaigns to retain the image of Empire, the budget must fit the ambition. Unfortunately, a previous 'glorious leader's' legacy of ensuring his place in history has, along with criminal mismanagement by Service and civvie 'leaders' within the MOD, left those of is still mannig the trenches in the deepest, darkest, smelliest guano seen since about 1936.
S.O.
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Forget leading the world, seat on the UNSC etc.
Simple facts: the military do not win votes, nor are there enough personnel to sway the vote, unless y'all register for a postal vote in DC's Witney constituency!
The Social Security budget is close on 50% of GDP: that is the "benefit" of a socialist Govt. I can look forward next year to my tax bill exceeding £70K, direct and indirect, and because I can't get NHS dentistry I'm going to Romania to have my teeth done.
You also have to examine how the military promotion system works: does it encourage liberal and radical thought?
You get the leaders you deserve: both political and military.
On another tack, Mr B Liar's latest revelations about the Iraq invasion do beg the question: how many of you actually doubted his reasoning and questioned it?
Simple facts: the military do not win votes, nor are there enough personnel to sway the vote, unless y'all register for a postal vote in DC's Witney constituency!
The Social Security budget is close on 50% of GDP: that is the "benefit" of a socialist Govt. I can look forward next year to my tax bill exceeding £70K, direct and indirect, and because I can't get NHS dentistry I'm going to Romania to have my teeth done.
You also have to examine how the military promotion system works: does it encourage liberal and radical thought?
You get the leaders you deserve: both political and military.
On another tack, Mr B Liar's latest revelations about the Iraq invasion do beg the question: how many of you actually doubted his reasoning and questioned it?
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Forget leading the world, seat on the UNSC etc.
Slim,
Great if we could, but it's the aspiration to have the ability to stop traffic in Beijing by their presence and noteriety on the world stage that seems to motivate our politicians, rather than to defend the sovereignty of their constituents from the vile foreign hordes.
S.O.
Great if we could, but it's the aspiration to have the ability to stop traffic in Beijing by their presence and noteriety on the world stage that seems to motivate our politicians, rather than to defend the sovereignty of their constituents from the vile foreign hordes.
S.O.
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What strikes me about this whole bloody mess is that it's the government - the politicians - that sent us into these conflicts, and then when they realise how expensive continuous expeditionary warfare is who is it that takes the cuts? Other industries? Other public sector elements?
No.
Not a chance.
It's the men and women who offer their lives, sometimes all too painfully literally, who take round after round of belt-tightening cuts and cheap penny-pinching stabs whilst we watch literally billions of pounds be pissed away by ill-conceived contracts or projects that are rarely what's needed. You can't run a wartime military on a peacetime budget.
Microscopic cuts will never make up for the macroscopic wastage!
They will only serve to reduce morale and force people into other walks of life. And those people are the most loyal servants that this country could want.
The government should realise the problems that it's storing up for itself and thank their lucky stars that for now Willie Walsh has a little more on his plate than to worry about recruiting....for now!
No.
Not a chance.
It's the men and women who offer their lives, sometimes all too painfully literally, who take round after round of belt-tightening cuts and cheap penny-pinching stabs whilst we watch literally billions of pounds be pissed away by ill-conceived contracts or projects that are rarely what's needed. You can't run a wartime military on a peacetime budget.
Microscopic cuts will never make up for the macroscopic wastage!
They will only serve to reduce morale and force people into other walks of life. And those people are the most loyal servants that this country could want.
The government should realise the problems that it's storing up for itself and thank their lucky stars that for now Willie Walsh has a little more on his plate than to worry about recruiting....for now!
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 16th Dec 2009 at 22:03.
We are servants of the Crown - and if the Crown does not want (or cannot afford) an expeditionary warfighting Armed Forces then lets write our doctrine, equip and train our forces for our new role - defending British shores and not fighting under resourced in far off lands, paying for it by selling off the family silver that just maybe required for tomorrows war of national survival..
Strategic ambivolence - anything for a quick buck
Spanner -
I have long had the view that this government is a strategic liability, a view that has often been met with derision and suggestions of hyperbole and scaremongering.
But I truly believe that the past few years have shown this government to be what they really are: strategically ambivolent, unable to see nothing beyond the bottom line on a balance sheet and an a burning desire to drag the country down to its lowest common denominator.
Most of the UK's strategic national infrastructure is either falling apart or in foreign hands; just look at who owns most of the banks, utility companies, power generation and supply companies, airports, manufacturing etc etc. All in the name of financial responsibility, making the UK an attractive place to do business and of course EU regulations. Despite blaming the banks for the current mess, this government spent years cosing up to them, encouraging risk taking and financial wizardry, all designed to boost profits and hence tax revenues. They came to power in 1997 on the mantra of education education education; so rather than bringing poor quality schools up to the standards of selective or private schools with their track record of A-grades and admission to quality universities to do real degrees, these schools were pilloried and accused of being the product of a thankfully dying era.
None of their actions have been based on sound strategic direction or intent; when it all starts to unravell, they are quick to shift the blame to anyone they think can carry the can for their foolhardiness.
This foolhardiness and strategic ambivolence is now clear for all to see in terms of the defence of this country. Having spent years salami slicing capability, they have now resorted to chopping entire capabilities. The only reason we need to carry out this emergency force re-balancing is because they have decimated defence through years of under investment, maladministration and a general irrational hatred for the military. Many on here and throughout the country have compared us unfavourably with the US, only to be told that the US has more money etc and can afford to maintain a robust defence capability. This is little more than smoke and mirrors to hide their mistakes; I cannot think of any credible government, regardless of the size of its economy, that would voluntarily either sell off its strategic national infrastructure and run its military into the ground at the same time as thrashing them to pieces.
This strategic idiocy must stop before the country is in no fit state to defend its interests - political, economic or social - either home or abroad. Unfortunately, Guy Fawkes played his hand about 400 years too early. And as Her Majesty (who I can only imagine retires each evening wondering what the hell Brown et al are doing) is above politics and cannot do what we all wish she would do, the only option is to kick these idiots out at the next election. Hopefully they have done enough to make themselves unelectable for at least a generation, which will allow the Armed Forces as a whole time to recover and regenerate its lost capability.
I have long had the view that this government is a strategic liability, a view that has often been met with derision and suggestions of hyperbole and scaremongering.
But I truly believe that the past few years have shown this government to be what they really are: strategically ambivolent, unable to see nothing beyond the bottom line on a balance sheet and an a burning desire to drag the country down to its lowest common denominator.
Most of the UK's strategic national infrastructure is either falling apart or in foreign hands; just look at who owns most of the banks, utility companies, power generation and supply companies, airports, manufacturing etc etc. All in the name of financial responsibility, making the UK an attractive place to do business and of course EU regulations. Despite blaming the banks for the current mess, this government spent years cosing up to them, encouraging risk taking and financial wizardry, all designed to boost profits and hence tax revenues. They came to power in 1997 on the mantra of education education education; so rather than bringing poor quality schools up to the standards of selective or private schools with their track record of A-grades and admission to quality universities to do real degrees, these schools were pilloried and accused of being the product of a thankfully dying era.
None of their actions have been based on sound strategic direction or intent; when it all starts to unravell, they are quick to shift the blame to anyone they think can carry the can for their foolhardiness.
This foolhardiness and strategic ambivolence is now clear for all to see in terms of the defence of this country. Having spent years salami slicing capability, they have now resorted to chopping entire capabilities. The only reason we need to carry out this emergency force re-balancing is because they have decimated defence through years of under investment, maladministration and a general irrational hatred for the military. Many on here and throughout the country have compared us unfavourably with the US, only to be told that the US has more money etc and can afford to maintain a robust defence capability. This is little more than smoke and mirrors to hide their mistakes; I cannot think of any credible government, regardless of the size of its economy, that would voluntarily either sell off its strategic national infrastructure and run its military into the ground at the same time as thrashing them to pieces.
This strategic idiocy must stop before the country is in no fit state to defend its interests - political, economic or social - either home or abroad. Unfortunately, Guy Fawkes played his hand about 400 years too early. And as Her Majesty (who I can only imagine retires each evening wondering what the hell Brown et al are doing) is above politics and cannot do what we all wish she would do, the only option is to kick these idiots out at the next election. Hopefully they have done enough to make themselves unelectable for at least a generation, which will allow the Armed Forces as a whole time to recover and regenerate its lost capability.
Last edited by Melchett01; 16th Dec 2009 at 22:06. Reason: Edited to add - in short yes Spanner, I do feel the same way
The real Slim Shady,
Where on earth do you get such nonsense from? The Social Security Budget is 50% of GDP?
What?
The UK Social Security budget is £160billion. UK GDP is over £1.7 TRILLION!!!
50%?
The UK Govt annual budget is some £600billion.
Melchett01,
Don't forget that Guy Fawkes tried to kill the Government AND the Monarch!
If you really think that the armed forces are going to have the funding and investment to recover and rebuild under a Tory Government then you are going to be terribly sadly disillusioned with a Cameron Gov't!
Where on earth do you get such nonsense from? The Social Security Budget is 50% of GDP?
What?
The UK Social Security budget is £160billion. UK GDP is over £1.7 TRILLION!!!
50%?
The UK Govt annual budget is some £600billion.
Melchett01,
Don't forget that Guy Fawkes tried to kill the Government AND the Monarch!
If you really think that the armed forces are going to have the funding and investment to recover and rebuild under a Tory Government then you are going to be terribly sadly disillusioned with a Cameron Gov't!
Last edited by pr00ne; 16th Dec 2009 at 23:16.
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Isn't Cameron really Tony Bliar?
I do apologise in advance, but I thought that Cameron was Tony Blair.
After all, both lie (through spin, misdirection and any other Machiavellian schemes possible). They sound the same. Neither have political convictions beyond the belief that they have the divine right to rule, and to further their wealth how ever possible.
Sorry. Hate politicians. Have been discussing politics with too many africans who are open mouthed in admiration for the corrupt politics in our country and how our political masters have got away with it for so long without a coup.
After all, both lie (through spin, misdirection and any other Machiavellian schemes possible). They sound the same. Neither have political convictions beyond the belief that they have the divine right to rule, and to further their wealth how ever possible.
Sorry. Hate politicians. Have been discussing politics with too many africans who are open mouthed in admiration for the corrupt politics in our country and how our political masters have got away with it for so long without a coup.
minigun thing.....
Correct, that should read £600 BILLION!
Correct, that should read £600 BILLION!