Does anyone else feel the same?
prOOne thingy whastit,
thought so, though I think I know where the other 50% figures may have come from.
A few weeks ago, the broadsheets were running with a headline that social security payments now exceed tax revenue. I think it is a contortion of that headline.
thought so, though I think I know where the other 50% figures may have come from.
A few weeks ago, the broadsheets were running with a headline that social security payments now exceed tax revenue. I think it is a contortion of that headline.
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With reference to the American defence budget - check the numbers,greater then the total budget for many countries and completely unsustainable long term - the crash when it comes will dwarf what we have seen in the last 2 years.High -tech military equipment is just not affordable to most countries anymore.
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The only consistent thing in all this, is that all the Pollies of all the main parties are as bad as each other on Defence.
This current lot are the worst I have ever seen for a while, it will not improve in the foreseeable future either.
This current lot are the worst I have ever seen for a while, it will not improve in the foreseeable future either.
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Proone:
The figure quoted contained only one inaccuracy - what it should have said is that "Health and Social Security take up 50% of the budget spend".
VecVec sadly has it right. Regardless of what we all think of the political classes, it is Joe P who votes for them, but in terms of what is cut where and when, the sacrificial lambs are offered up by the star ranks.
Our own leaders, our own senior commanders have sold us out. I've long held the opinion that most of them are a bunch of gin soaked, pension chasing, salute collecting, doddering f*rts incapable of running a flight of stairs and regrettably I'm not seeing anything that will change that for the most part.
It seems like in order to get that thick stripe on your arm, the first thing you have to do is rip out your spine and replace it with jelly. Secondly, put any ethical thoughts well to one side and trade in your leadership qualities for those of a whelk.
Unfortunately, as a mere simple former scopie, I can't see a way out of it, in my lifetime, that does not involve having either or both a PM or Defence Secretary with a pair of big cojones and a vision to embark on complete top to bottom reform of the ministry from top to bottom, in other words, a true inspirational leader.
I'm not sure there has ever been such a person in peacetime and I doubt there ever will be.
As far as the original poster is concerned, all you can do, depending on when you do it, is vote with your feet and take the lessons in life and the experience with you out of the front gates of the unit knowing that deep down you are no longer willing to be a party to this dereliction by higher authorities and then have the very cold comfort of saying I told you so, when what you predicted eventually comes to pass... thats what I did, in a round-about way and I've no personal, professional or financial regrets. I feel disappointed for those who came after and those that took the place of myself and my former colleagues and what they are being expected to do. Such smugness, although temporarily satisfying is not always an endearing quality and is often hollow.
Or stay in, ride it out, and do your bit changing it from the inside when you reach the dizzy heights yourself.
And it might be worth comforting yourself with one thing. If you think its bad now... you wait until todays' playstation generation get to these levels of decision making...
The figure quoted contained only one inaccuracy - what it should have said is that "Health and Social Security take up 50% of the budget spend".
VecVec sadly has it right. Regardless of what we all think of the political classes, it is Joe P who votes for them, but in terms of what is cut where and when, the sacrificial lambs are offered up by the star ranks.
Our own leaders, our own senior commanders have sold us out. I've long held the opinion that most of them are a bunch of gin soaked, pension chasing, salute collecting, doddering f*rts incapable of running a flight of stairs and regrettably I'm not seeing anything that will change that for the most part.
It seems like in order to get that thick stripe on your arm, the first thing you have to do is rip out your spine and replace it with jelly. Secondly, put any ethical thoughts well to one side and trade in your leadership qualities for those of a whelk.
Unfortunately, as a mere simple former scopie, I can't see a way out of it, in my lifetime, that does not involve having either or both a PM or Defence Secretary with a pair of big cojones and a vision to embark on complete top to bottom reform of the ministry from top to bottom, in other words, a true inspirational leader.
I'm not sure there has ever been such a person in peacetime and I doubt there ever will be.
As far as the original poster is concerned, all you can do, depending on when you do it, is vote with your feet and take the lessons in life and the experience with you out of the front gates of the unit knowing that deep down you are no longer willing to be a party to this dereliction by higher authorities and then have the very cold comfort of saying I told you so, when what you predicted eventually comes to pass... thats what I did, in a round-about way and I've no personal, professional or financial regrets. I feel disappointed for those who came after and those that took the place of myself and my former colleagues and what they are being expected to do. Such smugness, although temporarily satisfying is not always an endearing quality and is often hollow.
Or stay in, ride it out, and do your bit changing it from the inside when you reach the dizzy heights yourself.
And it might be worth comforting yourself with one thing. If you think its bad now... you wait until todays' playstation generation get to these levels of decision making...
all of the senior Servicemen agreed
For how many years now have we roled over the in year budget defecit into the following year .....?
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Some really interseting points here fellas. What I still fail to get my little head around is why now, months before a SDR. Why not wait until the SDR ,which lets face it, will happen straight after the General Election (which at the lastest would be in June) when we can make some thought out strategic decisions. To me this typifies this governments methodology. Sure, I'm not naive enough to think that the other lot will be the saviours of HM Forces but come on, this smacks of utter utter short-sighted desparation to me.
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RAF is there any future
Thick end of 100,000 when I joind in 1976 to about 45,000 when I left in 2002 now 41,000 and soon to be 30,000 or so. 30,000 is not a lot of folks and if like eggs is eggs the economy does come back stronger it wont be the MoD who finish the RAF it will be the current personnel. I am sure most of the RAF and Navy Boys and Girls are well motivated and well capable of finding a good job out in the big bad world. So use your brain cells and start thinking about getting out now, even if its just a feeler for whats out there. Anybody who throws their towel in with the MoD today and think they will look after you must need their heads testing.
Good luck to you all
Good luck to you all
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No Spinner, I left the RAF in 1976 and my feelings at these latest cuts pretty much mirror yours.
I wonder if there is some ex-KGB General sitting in his retirement dacha thinking: "Damn, Plan Purple worked in the end, who'd have thought it eh?
Few years later than we planned but, what the hell."
I wonder if there is some ex-KGB General sitting in his retirement dacha thinking: "Damn, Plan Purple worked in the end, who'd have thought it eh?
Few years later than we planned but, what the hell."
We could have saved FAR more by scrapping the carriers and JSF. Probably by scrapping one carrier.
We could have saved more by biting the bullet and getting rid of Harrier (and its entire support/logs chain) in toto, though I'm not necessarily advocating that.
Instead we're finally down to defence policy making according to the Sun and Daily Mail.
They're witless readers have heard of Chinooks, watched Ross Kemp and know they're good, so we're getting an inappropriately large number of those.
They're dimly aware that Nimrods are dangerous, so getting rid of them is good.
Getting rid of one squadron of Harriers (one third of the force) is just a small adjustment, ditto the squadron of Tornados.
And how many Sun readers are ever going to ask about SAR cover, de-lousing SSBNs, and the like?
And it's the likely reaction of the selfish, uninformed and ignorant to tax rises, or to painful cuts like the Red Arrows, BoBMF, Ceremonial troops and London barracks, carriers and HMS Victory that rule out those options.
And lest anyone think that the Tories are the answer to anyone's prayers, forget it. They're every bit as populist, spin-ridden and cynical as this lot, and while they'll criticise these cuts, they'll do nothing to reverse them, and if they get into power they'll use their 'strong on defence' reputation to deliver up more cuts, hoping that no-one will notice.
F*ckers, the lot of them.
We could have saved more by biting the bullet and getting rid of Harrier (and its entire support/logs chain) in toto, though I'm not necessarily advocating that.
Instead we're finally down to defence policy making according to the Sun and Daily Mail.
They're witless readers have heard of Chinooks, watched Ross Kemp and know they're good, so we're getting an inappropriately large number of those.
They're dimly aware that Nimrods are dangerous, so getting rid of them is good.
Getting rid of one squadron of Harriers (one third of the force) is just a small adjustment, ditto the squadron of Tornados.
And how many Sun readers are ever going to ask about SAR cover, de-lousing SSBNs, and the like?
And it's the likely reaction of the selfish, uninformed and ignorant to tax rises, or to painful cuts like the Red Arrows, BoBMF, Ceremonial troops and London barracks, carriers and HMS Victory that rule out those options.
And lest anyone think that the Tories are the answer to anyone's prayers, forget it. They're every bit as populist, spin-ridden and cynical as this lot, and while they'll criticise these cuts, they'll do nothing to reverse them, and if they get into power they'll use their 'strong on defence' reputation to deliver up more cuts, hoping that no-one will notice.
F*ckers, the lot of them.
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You chaps who have pointed out that it’s senior Service wallahs that pick the cuts are, of course, right. More precisely, they put forward prioritised “savings” proposals that are supported by “pain and grief” statements. Those “pain and grief” Impact Statements can never be strong or severe enough to deter Ministers from actually taking the savings. The head sheds are in an invidious position; rather like having their breeding gear trapped in a vice and being given a saw for when the workshop is set alight.
Another great Government ploy is to get the Services to squabble amongst themselves. The former CGS is more than qualified to explain that to us. I’m very pleased that the words spoken yesterday by 1SL in Iraq make an important Strategic point without resorting to low cunning. We, on this Site (including me, regrettably) are often guilty of that. Even more regrettably is that outside observers perceive it as that, even when it’s standard banter.
The short line is that the vote gluttons in Westminster took an ill conceived “peace dividend” and nothing on this Earth will make them give any of it back. I lie; there is one thing that could and it’s the voting British Public. They won’t, though, for all the reasons many of you have already said. They support “our boys”, so long as it doesn’t mean digging deeper in their pockets or giving up some “social” benefit.
I do find it interesting that certain Naval mechanical palm tree types find the loss of a functioning MPA so trivial.
Another great Government ploy is to get the Services to squabble amongst themselves. The former CGS is more than qualified to explain that to us. I’m very pleased that the words spoken yesterday by 1SL in Iraq make an important Strategic point without resorting to low cunning. We, on this Site (including me, regrettably) are often guilty of that. Even more regrettably is that outside observers perceive it as that, even when it’s standard banter.
The short line is that the vote gluttons in Westminster took an ill conceived “peace dividend” and nothing on this Earth will make them give any of it back. I lie; there is one thing that could and it’s the voting British Public. They won’t, though, for all the reasons many of you have already said. They support “our boys”, so long as it doesn’t mean digging deeper in their pockets or giving up some “social” benefit.
I do find it interesting that certain Naval mechanical palm tree types find the loss of a functioning MPA so trivial.
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Total agreement with Jacko. Have you been on the sherry mate? It's not like you to use profanity or let your grammar slip. My other half is one of those witless readers - I've tried to make her see sense, but you know what they're like 
Spinner, ....... yes, me too.
Gainsey,
Hahahahaha, was thinking much the same thing, wearing my cold war dinosaur outfit!
Spinner, ....... yes, me too.
Gainsey,
I wonder if there is some ex-KGB General sitting in his retirement dacha thinking: "Damn, Plan Purple worked in the end, who'd have thought it eh?
Few years later than we planned but, what the hell."
Few years later than we planned but, what the hell."
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@ Jabba TG 12
Having nearly "done" my 16 in 1968, I looked back, not just at the great people I was privileged to serve with and the places where we served, but also at what various Guvvamints had done to the RAF during that time, had a bit of a wonder whether there was likely to be a change and naturally opted for "out".
It wasn't always easy, and certainly no "escalator to fortune", but other "talents" than aeroplane driving came in handy and I've absolutely no regrets. What those still serving are going through now shows that my one-time plotting ahead curve was very optimistic, and makes me very, very sad.
It wasn't always easy, and certainly no "escalator to fortune", but other "talents" than aeroplane driving came in handy and I've absolutely no regrets. What those still serving are going through now shows that my one-time plotting ahead curve was very optimistic, and makes me very, very sad.
Last edited by Jig Peter; 17th Dec 2009 at 16:11. Reason: correct adressee ...
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Painful to be proved right...
Like some others posting here I did my 'bit'....'69-96' though I would have liked to stay on through to 2008 (age 55). When the 'peace dividend' (ha-ha what a joke) reviews/redundancy bit ..for the second time....it was obvious even then in '96 that things would only get worse.
I had the same experiences as most over those years....enjoyable times outweighing the unpleasant ones many fold but the writing was on the wall and like many I decided to accept redundancy. I can honestly say I am glad I did. Things have gone from bad to worse relative to the cuts and overstretch.....it's not nice being proved right.
The men and women who make up our armed forces are and always will be the people who 'get the job done' more often in spite of the 'upper echelons' than because of them.....so chin up guys and girls.....Still proud of you but of 'our Lords and Masters'.....forum language rules stop me from commenting...
I had the same experiences as most over those years....enjoyable times outweighing the unpleasant ones many fold but the writing was on the wall and like many I decided to accept redundancy. I can honestly say I am glad I did. Things have gone from bad to worse relative to the cuts and overstretch.....it's not nice being proved right.
The men and women who make up our armed forces are and always will be the people who 'get the job done' more often in spite of the 'upper echelons' than because of them.....so chin up guys and girls.....Still proud of you but of 'our Lords and Masters'.....forum language rules stop me from commenting...
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Pete:
Yep, I fully empathise; funnily enough, I left at the same point, 16 years partly down to dead mans shoes promotion. I made great friends for life who would walk through fire for each other if we asked each other to, I experienced some great places and learned almost everything I know about life and people and growing up.
It didnt take a huge amount of time though, once the 12 year point had gone past when I started to question how things were going, around the time of Options and saw at first hand the empire consolidation that was happening around Strike at the time and the pervading them and us atmosphere at Wycombe, which poisoned a lot of it for me from that point. I then decided I would sort out my education and training and in return for giving the RAF the best working years of my life that I would seek to get as much out of the system as I could.
Thing is now, those that followed in my footsteps have not had the chance of the experiences that I had, had the chance to learn from the people who I did, who I really looked up to, service discipline isnt the same and whilst some things at a personnel level appear to be getting slightly better - Project SLAM, Pay As You Starve, the lack of which were real bugbears during my time - other things, like trade experience, choice of postings, JPA, civilianisation of trades, all of these things, IMHO have dimmed the prospects compared to what I had. I had very grave doubts about the likes of Jock Stirrup, the late John Thompson, Bill Wratten and others, who were climbing their way through the star ranks when I was at Strike and although some have paid a blood price for their decisions, I do feel slightly vindicated in a hollow kind of way that maybe, just maybe all those years ago, I wasnt just another whinging airman, I was right to doubt their ability to lead.
It does make me sad for those that follow and from my time working as a contractor at Northwood, I was in regular contact with guys being sent out on a regular basis at very short notice to Iraq and the Stan, being put in harms way in ways I never knew, not even during GW1. Their attitudes though, their same esprit de corps and dedication to what they were doing was encouraging, that this one bond that ties us all is still alive and kicking. For the last 5-6 years I've been contracting its either been for DE&S or their like or similar so I've been in regular close contact with the serving operational community and have a good handle on what is being expected of them. There were times during the 80's that I remember when a lot of people in my trade were looking to get out and change their lives and some did and there were times when morale took a bit of a battering, but never anything like this, under Thatch or Major. I'm not saying the tories were perfect and didnt do anything that was bad or short sighted, but nothing like the current lot. These really are very dark days and I find it staggering that those who we were meant to look upto as scrambled egg wearing gods, once a year, for whom we'd paint the grass green if they wanted us to have allowed things to come to this with hardly a whimper.
So far as I am aware, those who have resigned their commissions because of the state of things are no higher than Gp Capt equivalent and most of them have been either dark blue or green. I realise that military strategy is largely an extension of foreign policy and that we go where we're told and dont question it, but I dont think in any way that it is unreasonable for senior commanders, who are meant to advise government, to say hang on a minute... this is what you're expecting us to do; with what we have got, this is not possible or this is not acceptable, or we need x or y and to be vocal about it and say I am not going to put the lives of my men and women on the line so cheaply. For all his faults, Dannatt spiked his own career by speaking out and his men respected him for it.
Reading Stuart Tootal's book was an eye opener. I thought here is an officer who not only leads, but inspires, is deeply respected by his troops and who knows the true value of the lives he is in charge of and feels every loss as if it is personal and doesnt put them in harms way lightly. Those are the types of leaders we need and they're not sticking around, they're leaving. I cant remember the last time we had someone like that in light blue. And, for our dark blue cousins, I think it was probably some time ago for them too...
Yep, I fully empathise; funnily enough, I left at the same point, 16 years partly down to dead mans shoes promotion. I made great friends for life who would walk through fire for each other if we asked each other to, I experienced some great places and learned almost everything I know about life and people and growing up.
It didnt take a huge amount of time though, once the 12 year point had gone past when I started to question how things were going, around the time of Options and saw at first hand the empire consolidation that was happening around Strike at the time and the pervading them and us atmosphere at Wycombe, which poisoned a lot of it for me from that point. I then decided I would sort out my education and training and in return for giving the RAF the best working years of my life that I would seek to get as much out of the system as I could.
Thing is now, those that followed in my footsteps have not had the chance of the experiences that I had, had the chance to learn from the people who I did, who I really looked up to, service discipline isnt the same and whilst some things at a personnel level appear to be getting slightly better - Project SLAM, Pay As You Starve, the lack of which were real bugbears during my time - other things, like trade experience, choice of postings, JPA, civilianisation of trades, all of these things, IMHO have dimmed the prospects compared to what I had. I had very grave doubts about the likes of Jock Stirrup, the late John Thompson, Bill Wratten and others, who were climbing their way through the star ranks when I was at Strike and although some have paid a blood price for their decisions, I do feel slightly vindicated in a hollow kind of way that maybe, just maybe all those years ago, I wasnt just another whinging airman, I was right to doubt their ability to lead.
It does make me sad for those that follow and from my time working as a contractor at Northwood, I was in regular contact with guys being sent out on a regular basis at very short notice to Iraq and the Stan, being put in harms way in ways I never knew, not even during GW1. Their attitudes though, their same esprit de corps and dedication to what they were doing was encouraging, that this one bond that ties us all is still alive and kicking. For the last 5-6 years I've been contracting its either been for DE&S or their like or similar so I've been in regular close contact with the serving operational community and have a good handle on what is being expected of them. There were times during the 80's that I remember when a lot of people in my trade were looking to get out and change their lives and some did and there were times when morale took a bit of a battering, but never anything like this, under Thatch or Major. I'm not saying the tories were perfect and didnt do anything that was bad or short sighted, but nothing like the current lot. These really are very dark days and I find it staggering that those who we were meant to look upto as scrambled egg wearing gods, once a year, for whom we'd paint the grass green if they wanted us to have allowed things to come to this with hardly a whimper.
So far as I am aware, those who have resigned their commissions because of the state of things are no higher than Gp Capt equivalent and most of them have been either dark blue or green. I realise that military strategy is largely an extension of foreign policy and that we go where we're told and dont question it, but I dont think in any way that it is unreasonable for senior commanders, who are meant to advise government, to say hang on a minute... this is what you're expecting us to do; with what we have got, this is not possible or this is not acceptable, or we need x or y and to be vocal about it and say I am not going to put the lives of my men and women on the line so cheaply. For all his faults, Dannatt spiked his own career by speaking out and his men respected him for it.
Reading Stuart Tootal's book was an eye opener. I thought here is an officer who not only leads, but inspires, is deeply respected by his troops and who knows the true value of the lives he is in charge of and feels every loss as if it is personal and doesnt put them in harms way lightly. Those are the types of leaders we need and they're not sticking around, they're leaving. I cant remember the last time we had someone like that in light blue. And, for our dark blue cousins, I think it was probably some time ago for them too...